To feel uncomfortable with regards to Drag?

[ShawshanksRedemption]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with Drag?

AIUI Drag came about because women's roles were originally played by men on the stage, and from there it's evolved to have pantomime dames, which is a caricature of women. Drag has now become an art form, a performance, with programmes like RuPaul's Drag Race showing how popular it is, but at it's core it's still a caricature, it's still a parody of women, and it's gaudy, brash and the wit and put downs waspish!

I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable about it all, maybe it's something I'm reading too much into, but effectively it's men aping women in a very unattractive way (and I'm not just talking the make up here).

Anyone else feel the same? Or should I just embrace it and get over myself?

@chomalungma -as you appear to be fairly hard of thinking and obviously don't have children, I'll spell it out for you.

Men are more likely to be paedophiles. Paedophiles will seek out all sorts of opportunities to have access to children.

As you said, they will be: "People who run clubs, who run uniformed organisations, vicars, priests, library volunteers."

Absolutely, they can be all of those things. Which is why there are huge amounts of checks nowadays. But there are also patterns. And one of them is seeking out opportunities to be around children.

So I am suspicious of any man who isn't a qualified teacher who seeks out opportunities to be around children.

As for this part of your post:
"All these people could be paedophiles and can read stories to children in a library. The fact is that you don't know who is reading to your child and you don't know anything about their background or motivation."

No, all these people are not reading stories to children in the library. There is not 'middle-aged men story hour' and you know why? Because no one would want their kids to go. Dressing a man up in glitter and satin doesn't make him any less (or more) of a predator. It just means that people's boundaries are down.

And the fact is that I do know exactly who is with my children 100% of the day.

Yes I have always hated it but I wasn't really sure why 25 years' ago. The likes of Lily Savage, Dame Edna etc used to make me cringe. Yep needs to go the same way as blackface they have been getting away with it for far too long.

I remember always thinking that Eddie Izzard was a bastard as a student and that he really hated women...

There is not 'middle-aged men story hour' and you know why? Because no one would want their kids to go

You do know that plenty of people read stories to children in libraries?
Yes, even men.....
Some of these men even read stories to children in schools...and are in a position of trust.

Your argument seems to be that the reason that you don't think drag queens should be allowed to read stories to children is because they are men and might be paedophiles. A link was posted to a drag queen who was a paedophile and so you damn all drag queens as potential paedophiles.

Would you have posted the same if it was a priest talking to the children about Christmas?

Or Father Christmas talking to the children?

Or a man running fun activity for the children?

Would you have started a thread saying a man mustn't be allowed to read a story to children in a library because some men are paedophiles - and would you have put a link to a man who was a paedophile?

Or is it just drag queens you think are all potential paedophiles so no drag queen should be allowed to read to children at all because of that?

It just means that people's boundaries are down

In a library, with parents and staff present...what do you think is going to happen?

As a parent, I have taught my son about 'stranger danger' - and to be able to talk to me about things that make him feel uncomfortable - because that is where the danger lies. Not from a drag queen who your child will see in a public space once with parents there reading a story to them.

Strangely enough I don't want middle aged men teaching my children how to twerk.

'Drag Queen Story Hour (DQSH) is just what it sounds like—drag queens reading stories to children in libraries, schools, and bookstores. DQSH captures the imagination and play of the gender fluidity of childhood and gives kids glamorous, positive, and unabashedly queer role models. In spaces like this, kids are able to see people who defy rigid gender restrictions and imagine a world where people can present as they wish, where dress up is real.'

Where to begin unpicking..
Let's defy rigid gender restrictions by putting on a woman costume. But not the fleece and jeans, let's have the sequins and kitten heels - i.e. RIGID female gender sterotypes.

Strangely enough I don't want middle aged men teaching my children how to twerk

Well - that's a different argument, isn't it?

There are plenty of arguments about not having a drag queen in a library. The argument about potentially being a paedophile is one of the more extreme ones.

No, all drag queens aren't paedophiles. But all paedophiles will seek out opportunities to access children.

At least 2 convicted paedophiles have participated in DQSH. Being able to operate under different names is useful for people who are sexually interested in children.

Have you watched the twerking video? It's really interesting because I suspect that most of those right on parents would have taken their kids out of the room if it had been a regular middle aged man dong that. But a drag queen meant they were so worried they'd be seen as bigots that they didn't dare.

The issue is that men who have no qualifications or experience of working with children are being given a pass because they're drag queens. They're not being held to the same standards and they're not being asked the same questions.

On the one hand you’ve got society saying “women, get over here and squeeze yourself into this box of ‘femininity’, wear this stuff and act this way or you’re not acceptably female”

Society doesn't say that. At all. Women in our society are free to ignore stereotypically "feminine" dress, and no one bats an eyelid - no one thinks they are not "acceptably female" either.

No, all drag queens aren't paedophiles. But all paedophiles will seek out opportunities to access children

So I take it you wouldn't want any man reading a story to your children because they are men?

And if someone said there was a story event at your library and you went to it and you found out a man was doing it. you would refuse to go?

Random man? Yes.

But actually, it would never happen that a man with no experience or working with children would be doing a storyhour. Because it would be fucking weird.

Its very dangerous to laugh at men, or parody male stereotypes. Masculinity is fragile and fiercely protected. It’s not culturally accepted so much to take the piss out of male behaviour or undermine it even in our enlightened times.

Not meaning to be antagonistic @HumberElla, but im genuinely interested here. Can you give some examples?

I'm really interested to read this thread. Since the Justin Trudeau story broke I have been questioning why drag is seen in a very different light to blackface and I felt extremely uncomfortable about it. I see it as a very similar thing - oppression of a large group by dint of assumed appearance.

Many of you have put my feelings into words far more eloquently than I could have done, so thank you.

Women in our society are free to ignore stereotypically "feminine" dress, and no one bats an eyelid

Where do you live where women never get criticised for not wearing the right clothes, hair, make-up, shoes? Pluto?

Was the ice age a particularly anti-drag era?

I tend to agree op, and I really hate Mrs Brown's boys. But then I really really love Robert Webb's flash dance -- I mean I really love it! Why is one ok and the other not..? I'm not sure.

I used to enjoy it, until I really looked into it and decided it was a mockery of women.

I don’t really care if there are the rare drag kings now.

It’s still bloody offensive.

I also hate how gay men call each other “she” and “her” when they are referring to another gay male being “bitchy” or some other similar “female stereotype”.

Drag really does use a lot of references to outdated female stereotypes (I have been to many, many drag shows/cabarets in my home city, that has a huge drag scene).

In terms of art, the only artistry I see is some pretty epic make up skills, the humour is lost on me though.

How *some gay men

Here and see it all the time in real life, tv etc and it boils my piss!!

I don’t like it at all. It feels like a parody of women.

"But then I really really love Robert Webb's flash dance -- I mean I really love it! Why is one ok and the other not..? I'm not sure."

Because he wasn't dressed as a woman. He just had a leotard on.

Plus it wasn't piss taking. He actually made an effort and did a good job.

I agree, it's misogynistic. If there were a drag show in front of me I might watch it, but I'd still feel it's somehow 'wrong.' Worse still, we now have child drag queens, and drag queen storytime (which I don't disagree with on principle, but some of the stuff that's gone on has been a bit inappropriate.)

@LiveInAHidingPlace

Because he wasn't dressed as a woman. He just had a leotard on.

In response to being asked to do lets dance for comic relief, he replied

Plus it wasn't piss taking. He actually made an effort and did a good job.

Totally agree. So if it isn't piss taking then is it ok?
Robert Webb: 'It will have to be a drag act’

So he considered it a drag act. He was wearing a wig. I haven't seen flash dance (is it a film?) but I assumed he was dressed as the women from the film / music video?

*sorry the order went a bit wrong there

ooooohBetty OP said it made her uncomfortable she never said she was offended or it was offensive

@chomalungma To say that drag queens should be banned from reading to children in a library because paedophiles can be drag queens or will be encouraged to be drag queens is a pathetic argument.

Agreed. I don't like conflating the two.

If you don't like it don't watch it.

Thank you @Lowlandlucky

I started this thread to question my own reaction to it. To explore it, to listen to all points raised. As the mum of a gay child (and have worked in an industry with many gay people) I do appreciate and understand how difficult it is still in this day and age to be gay. To be safe. To be loved and accepted for who you are. I want that for my DC and my friends.

But I do have this gut reaction to drag, I suppose the glamour drag, the waspish female persona kind of drag. I don't particularly like women like that either, the over the top make up and the bitchyness. Maybe I feel it's the worst part of some women's behaviour that men just shouldn't be aping for the purposes of entertainment?

I don't feel the same reaction when I see Grayson Perry as "Claire" because I'm seeing someone explore their own personality, rather than a negative portrayal of being female.

While we are on the vague topic, I loved the Tom Holland v. Zendaya lip sync battle. Both played the roles to the max, with integrity and not a hint of pistaking at all. It was like the world should be - gender just didn't matter.

I hated that basically no-one blinked an eye at zendaya portraying a male singer while tom was 'brave' 'stunning' 'outrageous' for portraying a female singer. So so SO many people commenting on it in a way that indicates just how different it is in people's minds when it shouldn't be.

Roll on the day when people with penises wearing dresses isn't considered even slightly brave...then drag queens will be good if they are actually good performers...not just good because of their amazing so called bravery for wearing make up