To feel uncomfortable with regards to Drag?

[ShawshanksRedemption]

Am I the only one who feels uncomfortable with Drag?

AIUI Drag came about because women's roles were originally played by men on the stage, and from there it's evolved to have pantomime dames, which is a caricature of women. Drag has now become an art form, a performance, with programmes like RuPaul's Drag Race showing how popular it is, but at it's core it's still a caricature, it's still a parody of women, and it's gaudy, brash and the wit and put downs waspish!

I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable about it all, maybe it's something I'm reading too much into, but effectively it's men aping women in a very unattractive way (and I'm not just talking the make up here).

Anyone else feel the same? Or should I just embrace it and get over myself?

They aren’t calling women bitch or fish, they are saying that to each other.

You can appreciate why some women would have an issue with ‘bitch’ and especially ‘fish’, surely?

@LaVieilleHarpie Cheryl is on social media, you could ask her yourself, she’ll respond in her normal witty way I’m sure.
And as a gay man when out of drag I’m sure it’s not the same hole he’s talking about.

Again as you have missed it I’ll ask again....

Drag kings do the same thing, if you’re not offended by both I find that a bit hypocritical.
But you haven’t mentioned bio queens or bio queens. Are those offensive to you too?

@53rdWay yes if someone came up and said it to me or was a personal dig yes, but when you’re out of the community and understand how queens and kings speak then no, not offensive.

You get why they use fish though? Fish is saying ‘I’m passable as female’ it’s like the catfish thing.

Fish is saying ‘I’m passable as female’ it’s like the catfish thing.

It’s not a reference to ‘the catfish thing’. It long predates that. It’s a mean, insulting reference to the supposed smell of women’s genitals.

The history of cross dressing extends back a lot further than you think.

In the 18th century "molly houses" were part of pervasive sub culture, estimated to be 30 moll houses in London. That's massive!

They were "safe" spaces where gay men could meet and socialise aswell as engage in sexual acts. Dressing as women and holding pretend weddings was a powerful way they were railing against the patriarchy. Gay men weren't in a privileged position they were highly persecuted!
Link if interested to learn more at the end.

Others may disagree but I feel like drag comes from a place of dissent against the patriarchy and heterosexual male oppressors. It was an act of non conformity and gender fluidity from a group who were marginalised. Blackface is not complimentary, it's a mockery of black people... And it's perpetrated by white oppressors.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/eastendwomensmuseum.org/blog/miss-muffs-molly-house-in-whitechapel%3fformat=amp

I

@53rdWay nope. In the 30 years, from a child, that I have been around queens and mentioned the term have any turned round and said that. At all.

Yes. That’s where it comes from. You seriously think ‘fish’ is a reference to catfishing?

@53rdWay straight men and women have said that but I’ve never heard a Queen say it and I’ve been around them weekly.
‘I look fishy, I feel like fish’ you really think is a gay man saying I look like a vagina....

@53rdWay fish means passable as a women.
How many queens do you socialise with regularly and have these conversations with? Those I am friends with use it as a term for passing.

There was a thread on this on here the other week and someone said drag was the absolute best celebration of women there was.

It takes men to celebrate women apparently.

That’s where the term comes from. That’s why ‘fish’ is linked to ‘woman’. Yes I’m sure your friends are lovely and would not tell you that your genitals smell unpleasant, but it’s still an awful misogynistic word to use.

I'm not 'offended' by drag kings because NEVER in human history have men been oppressed by women. Drag kings are not grotesquely parodying the people they oppress.

Mumsnet is becoming increasingly homophobic- very worrying

No it's not. Women being uncomfortable with, or just plain downright angry about, MEN (and gay men are still men, with all the inherent privilege that entails) grotesquely parodying us in not homophobic.

As I've mentioned on previous threads in this topic, my daughter is gay and has been ridiculed to the point of tears by a drag queen during their performance. He singled her out from an audience of hundreds to make fun of her supposed lack of femininity/dowdy clothes. Other audience members laughed along. At a teenage girl, newly 'out'. How is that anything other than homophobic?

And please don't tell me that drag celebrates either gay culture or femininity. For all the reasons stated above, it just ain't true.

@53rdway fish is a term queens use to celebrate women. You might be offended by it but those of us who understand the community and are part of it don’t find it upsetting, it’s not said by them as a put down. I’ve heard bio queens and burlesque performers use it too.
Have you actually had a conversation like this with drag queens?

fish is a term queens use to celebrate women

'Celebrate women'? By referring to them in the context of the supposed smell of their genitalia in the most vile, reductive way possible? Are you serious?

Even if it’s said by the loveliest, cuddliest, sparkliest drag queen imaginable, I still don’t feel ‘celebrated’ by a term that comes from an insult about my genitals. How small-minded of me!

@BackToTheOIdHouse @53rdway like I have said, as a member of the community I understand the terms, maybe find some queens to speak to.
Another reason I don’t find it offensive is I know I don’t smell like fish and know it’s a silly term.
As stated I’ve heard bio queens and burlesque performers use it, are you offended when females use it or just gay men?

@MorganKitten as a member of the LGBTQ community I'm well aware of, and have conversed with, plenty of queens.

I find it incredibly depressing when women use terms like this, just as I do when they call other women things like bitches and slags. Being complicit with misogyny doesn't make it ok/reclaim these words/make them less misogynistic. Words have power, whoever uses them.

maybe find some queens to speak to

What is it you think they’ll tell me? “Yes it’s a reference to women’s genitals being smelly, but we mean it in an affectionate way!” Why do you think this will change my mind about it?

are you offended when females use it

Yes.

"Ru Paul-esque drag - fine
Mrs brown's boys drag - absolutely awful and should be banned immediately."

I find men in drag repulsive and always have done. I hate pantomime dames. Strangely enough I don't mind Mrs Brown's boys. I don't think about the reason behind it. It's a gut reaction for me to be repulsed. I feel the same about clowns and people in halloween masks though which could be connected.

Loads of dick-worshippers on here. I could vomit.

This thread has reminded me that there needs to be a Drag Race UK topic started.

Loads of dick-worshippers on here. I could vomit

Innit.

"Fishy
adj. A term used to describe a drag queen who looks extremely feminine, or one who convincingly resembles a cis woman. The term is a reference to the scent of a vagina, which is colloquially likened to the smell of fish. Although the term is considered to be a compliment among Drag Queens, it is often considered to be an insult among non-drag women."

That's from RuPaul's own Drag Race Dictionary wiki. It's right there in black & white that it relates to the perceived smell of women's genitals. It's essentially saying "ooh, you've captured womanface so brilliantly I could almost believe you have a [smelly, fishy] vagina."

Men don't have vaginas, they're never going to be told their genitals stink of fish so they and their apologists can fuck right off trying to claim it's a compliment because they're not the ones being insulted by it. It's a nasty, misogynistic in-joke that demeans women every time it's used.

'Although the term is considered to be a compliment among Drag Queens, it is often considered to be an insult among non-drag women'

Or, women, as we're more accurately known.

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg you mean fan created page not endorsed by RuPaul... I’ve heard plenty of women talk about their partners sweaty balls and not wanting to touch them. Guess that’s ok, equal opportunities and all that.

@53rdWay no I think you might be a bit more accepting of people if you actually talk to them.

@LaVieilleHarpie dick worshippers? Any one in a straight relationship then....