To think that 1st Cousin Marriage should be illegal

[stucknoue]

Background: as part of my job I rent out halls, they are very popular for Asian parties and weddings and my clients are lovely, often bringing me food and inviting me to their celebrations.

Over the past couple of months I've unfortunately had to rent the hall for child funeral meals twice to the same family, the kids were cousins and had the same rare genetic condition. In talking to their grandad he revealed that he and his wife were cousins, then going on to tell me that the parents of the sadly deceased children were also cousins. I looked up that cousin marriage increases genetic conditions 3 fold, the more generations that have practiced it then the higher the probability. With our knowledge of science surely this practice should be outlawed?

I agree

One issue with trying to resolve the problem of potential birth defects with genetic screening is there being far more genetic conditions than there are tests.

Not to mention who foots the bill and what happens when the genetic tests miss something?

Genetics testing is a dark art in my mind. It's not like you put a cell under the microscope and read a part number. Despite the way they label them like it's that easy!

I'm glad to have lightened the mood with the dingle misspelling, it is also a word used in Lancashire to describe people from Burnley.

How good is genetic screening?

The suggestion that genetic screening could identify couples at risk of each passing on a recessive gene for a disorder and they could then either choose not to have children together or to undertake selective IVF is attractive. But there are so many known genetic disorders out there. Is it practical to screen couples for all of the known ones?

It is practical when it is a common gene within a population, as I mentioned before, Tay-Sachs disease used to be common Ashkenazi Jewish people, the screening carried out has been so successful that most people diagnosed now are not of Ashkenazi descent.

But screening needs to continue to keep that trend going.

It is easier to screen for one or two genes and also in socially isolated communities that follow traditions of arranged marriages soin a way genetic screening for Tay-Sachs is ideal for orthodox Jewish communities.

@sashh I think you missed the other half of my post where I mentioned Tay Sachs and Sickle Cell being easy to test for as they are single gene conditions in specific communities. My question is whether you can do a general screening for a range of unspecified disorders for a cousin couple not from one of those communities?

I'm with you Op, I think it's really wrong. There's a Sophie Kinsella story where first cousins marry and have children, it's so sick.

Have you ever read Mansfield Park? Or Emma?

Having read this thread, out of curiosity I looked up what genetic testing would be recommended for the people in my family with Ashkenazi Jewish heritage.

I actually asked their doctor this year if they should have any testing, but as their closest known fully Ashkenazi Jewish ancestor is a great-grandparent she thought not.

Quite interesting this stuff. I know nothing about it tbh.

www.cigna.com/individuals-families/health-wellness/hw/medical-topics/ashkenazi-jewish-genetic-panel-tv7879

Chopinin, can you remember the name of the Sophie Kinsella book about cousins marrying? Thanks.

@Rachelover60 isn't it the shopaholic series?

@ChopinIn10Minuets I believe if this is Jane Austin's Emma she married her brother in law so no blood relation. That's not exactly the same thing

In my family, my grandparents generation, identical twin brothers married identical twin sisters.

Their children were obviously cousins, but were as closely related genetically as brother and sister.

They didn't marry, but presumably could have done if they had wanted to.

I've also heard of ancestry results that show weird relationships between known relatives, showing them as closer relatives than they actually are, because of several marriages between related people in the past concentrating their genetics.

I think in this day and age, with the knowledge we have of genetics, there needs to be a closer look at what is acceptable and where the line is drawn between what is OK and what isn't.

I agree.

To the “right-on” folk exclaiming that ethnicity has nothing to do with his question - as PPs have said; everyone knows it is more prevalent among certain ethnicities/cultures, so it’s absolutely relevant.

It would be possible to legislate to prohibit cousin marriage. However, what if people decided just to break the law? How would you propose to enforce the legislation? What would be the penalty? A fine? Custodial sentence?

I suppose we would enforce the law in the same way we do if a father has sex with his daughter or brothers and sisters have sex.

It would be possible to legislate to prohibit cousin marriage. However, what if people decided just to break the law? How would you propose to enforce the legislation? What would be the penalty? A fine? Custodial sentence?

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/part/1/crossheading/sex-with-an-adult-relative

"The ways that A may be related to B are as parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, half-brother, half-sister, uncle, aunt, nephew or niece."

I assume you'd add 'first cousin' to that list.

No - what you have described is how you legislate to prohibit the offence. I’ve already accepted that is perfectly possible.

Enforcement of the law is a separate and distinct matter. The penalty here is enforcement via penalties which are imprisonment or a fine (under section 64(5). I just can’t see the CPS being bothered to prosecute the offence - especially as it’s actually quite common in certain cultures. And, practically speaking, if it’s not prosecuted, it goes unpunished.

In addition, because it’s more common in certain cultures, the legislation might not meet the test to ensure legislation is not indirectly discriminatory on the grounds of race (I assume there is such a test - it’s a common principle in public law, certainly).

I just can’t see the CPS being bothered to prosecute the offence - especially as it’s actually quite common in certain cultures. And, practically speaking, if it’s not prosecuted, it goes unpunished.

Except that the central reason cousin marriage is so popular in these communities is economic. And if the marriage is invalid under our laws those economic benefits and rights are dramatically reduced.

Of course it should be. It’s only allowed so the royals could keep it in the family.

Gone are the days of the royals marrying a goofy looking cousin they've met once. They're going to marry somebody they are attracted to.

Mind you, royal families are all getting better looking as they become more scrutinised like celebrities I think. The Queen Mother was quite ordinary looking (and the Duke of Windsor never let her forget it!)

redappleandaquamarinebow1987
@Rachelover60 isn't it the shopaholic series?

.....

I don't know, am not familiar with the author. I googled her and she's written a lot of books but nothing stood out as being about that particular subject. Tbh, none of the books looked as though they were about serious issues.

I'll have a look at the shopaholic series though, thanks.

I've looked. It appears to be 'Shopaholic ties the knot'; I read a bit online and it seemed quite superficial. Won't bother buying it.

Going back to the main point of this thread, every effort should be made to educate people about the dangers of consanguinity. We can't compare now to years gone by when it was acceptable only because nobody knew much about it. No one can plead ignorance now.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy there’s another issue here - which is that a proposed criminal sexual offence of incest between cousins and making a marriage between cousins invalid are two distinct things and I think they would need to be legislated for separately.

YANBU at all

I imagine they would be legislated separately, Piglet89. However the criminal offence of incest is rarely prosecuted, presumably because it's hard to prove.

I think making cousin marriage illegal would be far more important. Because the issue in communities who practice cousin marriage over many generations isn't that these couples are fueled by a grand passion. No. The practice stems from the legal and material benefits of keeping property within the family.

If cousin marriage became illegal and could not be claimed as valid to HMRC etc then it would become far less attractive

I don't think there's an easy answer to this one. Education hasn't worked - the information has been out there for many years, but the communities involved are either wilfully ignoring the facts, or using the "it's god's will" defence. Making it illegal will just result in people lying or only having religious, not civil, marriages.

As mentioned by many PPs, a one-off instance is unlikely to be a problem (co-incidentally, yesterday I found such an instance in my own family tree from the mid 1800s). But continuing to intermarry down the generations isn't going to end well. I guess some of the most extreme inbred families will eventually die out naturally, if no new blood is introduced.

Fanny Price in Mansfield Park marries her first cousin. Dd and I each read it over the summer and both said, "Euurrrgh." I suppose it's a reason (apart from the dreary heroine) why there have been relatively few tv/screen adaptations.

Agree heartily with Limer. Education won't stop it. It's also not "racist" to point out this practice is harmful. It's not a blanket criticism of a race, it is criticism of a practice in certain communities: Pakistani (from BMJ up to 80% in some families), Traveller, and indeed polygamous Mormon (in US).