To think that 1st Cousin Marriage should be illegal

[stucknoue]

Background: as part of my job I rent out halls, they are very popular for Asian parties and weddings and my clients are lovely, often bringing me food and inviting me to their celebrations.

Over the past couple of months I've unfortunately had to rent the hall for child funeral meals twice to the same family, the kids were cousins and had the same rare genetic condition. In talking to their grandad he revealed that he and his wife were cousins, then going on to tell me that the parents of the sadly deceased children were also cousins. I looked up that cousin marriage increases genetic conditions 3 fold, the more generations that have practiced it then the higher the probability. With our knowledge of science surely this practice should be outlawed?

We have the technology in place (genetic screening) so I do not think that wilful blindness is acceptable. If communities practicising cousin marriage wish to continue this practice, then they should do the screening first. It is selfish to inflict disorders/disabilities on the next generation and to the wider community, who will bear the burden of increased medical/care costs. If the incidence of these disorders can be reduced, it is responsible to do so.

When my ex-MIL and FIL did one of those DNA tests, they found out that their genetic distance is somewhere between first and second cousins. They are both rural SW Irish, and families not even well known to each other before the marriage.
They also found a couple of schoolmates from exH's rural school who would have been his 3+ cousins. He even dated some of them.

First cousin marriage is illegal in Utah (under the age of 65) - I don't doubt that this law was enacted specifically to target the Mormon population. Read the link on previous page for explanation of a reduced gene pool (ie a few men fathering children) resulting in rare harmful genes meeting other rare harmful genes.

Sometimes I don't think education works. In certain communities it is not a question of ignorance, but all about money/power and the only way to stop it or at least discourage it, is by legal means.

Yes it's gross. Imagine your in-laws being your aunt and uncle who you had known growing up and closely related to.

www.independent.co.uk/news/science/inbreeding-study-uk-dna-university-queensland-biobank-genes-incest-a9091561.html

My best friend's parents are cousins. What's that got to do with me? They're not marrying over generations and generations, they're not royalty! Don't see why the state would have to intervene in who, within reason, others want to mate with.

You're not unreasonable. Most people nowadays believe first cousin marriages are not a good idea. Of course, if there is no genetic weakness in the family the children will be OK but I think it isn't worth the risk.

The royal family all used to marry first cousins and eventually that stopped. A lot of them are related but more distantly (like the Queen and Duke who are 3rd cousins once removed).

The Catholic church forbids marriage between first cousins, that wasn't always the case.

There are plenty of people to marry without having to keep it in the family.

Maybe it is time to make it illegal.

PS: Not that I like the idea of the state interfering in private lives but we have to think of the health of future generations.

I’ll tell my aunt and uncle immediately that they should divorce, and that their three (totally healthy and normal) kids that you said they might have some genetic condition that increases three-fold, based on two funerals you’ve had to unfortunately plan. 🤦🏻‍♀️

goldfinchfan
By education I didn't mean in schools.
Just start raising awareness.
TV.....Church....Mosque......Health Centres.
Put out leaflets .
Why not have TV programs discussing the issue?
,,,,,,,,,,

I did see a programme about this issue a while back, an imam was speaking about and against first cousin marriages. He had married a first cousin and they had two little girls with health problems. He was very keen on educating people against it.

There were other examples too.

It does often come up on television.

I

Noo! sorry oif it wasnt clear an Asian woman married an english man and i don't know how far back in time they may or might have had any connections but their children, offspring, did very well are two increddibly bright ones. One the Girl has gone to Cambridhe Uni the Boy to Oxford they collected god alone knows how many A levels and both are perfectly healthy!.

What has that got to do with anything except the successes of this particular family? An English and an Asian person are unlikely to be closely related. No one is suggesting that people of Asian descent (or English descent) are in general likely to have learning difficulties. The issue is one of cousin marriage, and specifically of cousin marriages repeated over several generations. The risk from a single cousin marriage isn't that great, but children of related parents should be discouraged from marrying relatives themselves.

In my line of work I care for a lot of young adults towards the end of life with genetic conditions.
A lot of these adults are the result of first cousin marriages. I know of one extended family where over 50% of the kids have one if not more genetic conditon that severely life limiting condotions. They can't function as a normal adult would and require round the clock care. The family are still practicing first cousin marriage, despite living everyday in houses that are more like hospital than homes.
They consider the risks of the genetic issues worth the pay off for knowing who they're marrying their daughters to and keeping their kids in the family, they believe this will prevent abuse and mistreatment, with the sons it's knowing that the girl they are marrying is pure.

I do think we cannot judge previous generations who were not aware of the problems which can happen as a result of consanguinity. For example, the ancient Egyptian pharoahs married siblings, it was considered very much the thing to do, incest had not been defined then.

We have tight knit communities in this country in which there is a risk of consanguinity but they generally have tests before a betrothal to limit the possibility of genetic disease being passed on to offspring. I was thinking here of Hasidic Jews testing for Tay-Sachs.

African-Caribbean people test for the sickle cell trait.

Education is the answer, it takes time but many communities have woken up to the dangers which is a good thing.

This came up on my news feed.

First and foremost this is not an "Asian" thing. It is rare in most Asian communities and it is even a taboo in North Indian communities that are of non Muslim background. In the UK it is heavily concentrated in the Pakistani community and shared by some others. In Pakistan consanguinous (cousin) marriage is practiced by around 70‰ of the population. In cities like Bradford the rate is 50-60% in the Pakistani - Mirpuri community. These are not one off cousin marriages but generation after generation.

It is an issue and compounds genetic defects at birth. In 2010 an article was posted on the BBC claiming that 30‰ of all genetic related defects at birth were from the Pakistani community alone who at the time accounted for 3‰ of all births in the country.

Whether it is banned is one question. It at least should certainly be discouraged through educating communities.

www.researchgate.net/publication/322034342_Consanguineous_marriages_and_their_detrimental_outcomes_in_Pakistan_an_urgent_need_for_appropriate_measures

My DP is half Middle Eastern and his relatives are all married cousins. The kids all have health conditions. One is is blind, one has cancer, one has cystic fibrosis.. it goes on. my FIL is a doctor and very westernised and warned them not to marry cousins but apparently it's gods will..

Each person has
2 parents, 4 grandparents, and 8 ggp.

A couple should have 4 parents, 8 grandparents, and 16 ggp.

A first cousins couple would have 4 parents, 6 grandparents, and 12ggp.

Double cousins would have 4 parents, 4 grandparents, and 8 ggp.

Maybe the way law should work is in order to marry their should be at least 6 grandparents, and 12ggp to rule out double cousins and ensure at least some mix of genes into the pot.

YANBU. I don’t understand why it’s legal. Purposefully conceiving inbred children should also carry a penalty.

Since it's so common in Asian families, I dare say that banning it would be seen as racist, and cultural imperialism. Never mind that it's a proven reason for a much higher incidence of genetic defects, than in other racial groups.

Oh, and since so many of those families are Muslim, it'd probably be seen as anti-Islamic, too. There would be a massive hoo-ha - I doubt that any govt. of whatever colour would have the nerve.

Justaboy

I think you have totally missed or misunderstood the topic being discussed here - or you have been eating blue smarties

Oh, and since so many of those families are Muslim, it'd probably be seen as anti-Islamic, too. There would be a massive hoo-ha - I doubt that any govt. of whatever colour would have the nerve.

You might be interested to know, that while it’s allowed in Islam but it’s discouraged by many scholars. It is not a religious obligation per say!! But yes it would be a problem if those who were already married were told to divorce or so or to not have kids.

My DP is half Middle Eastern and his relatives are all married cousins. The kids all have health conditions. One is is blind, one has cancer, one has cystic fibrosis.. it goes on. my FIL is a doctor and very westernised and warned them not to marry cousins but apparently it's gods will..

I am middle eastern and to be honest I think there is more cousin marriages in the uk in Asian communities (becsuse they’re abroad and didn’t grow together) than there is back home. It is not “considered” gods will to marry your cousin. It’s simoly considered an option.

Most people do it nowadays because they find it hard to trust strangers, but everyone who does it knows it’s not really ideal for genetic reasons and that it’s discouraged..

Most definately everyone knows that marrying s cousin if you are already descendants of cousins is an issue..

I’m married to my second cousin. And for a while I didn’t want to consider him because of the generic concern.

So it’s not a big revelation to many Muslims in the Muslim community that there is a concern...

I went and did some research and calculations and figured out the risk was minimal. But I still would steer away from cousin marriages in general.

Plz don’t make it out to be more dramatic than it is. The Muslim community isn’t dumb to think this is anti Islam or racist.

There’s should be educationary programs discouraging.

I am devout Muslim and a proud middle eastern and I don’t see this conflicting in any way

The Muslim community isn’t dumb to think this is anti Islam or racist.

Sadly, one or two posters on this thread do.

Sadly, one or two posters on this thread do.

I don’t see how that’s representative of the Muslim community.

As I said, I don’t see how educational programs about genetic risk would be considered racist.

I’m middle eastern countries you also are not allowed to marry before you take genetic screening for specific things like thalassemia and sickle cell. I had to do the screening before I was allowed to marry my second cousin. Yes of course there are other issues involved but this alone is an indication that awareness is there.

Why would something like that in the UK be considered an issue ??

I would not have been allowed to marry my second cousin in my parents home country if we both tested positive. As yes, that would be a huge taboo by the community that I’ve imflicted something selfish unto my kids.

It is widely practiced in the Middle East that before marriage you undergo specific tests before you are allowed to register your marriage or go through any religious body.

I’m not saying that this is sufficient, but I’m saying it’s BECAUSE people know the risks.

So I don’t see why in the UK it should be any different.

I live in the UK, grown up in the UK, but still wanted my marriage registered back in my parentsnhome country initially.. and that’s what I had to do. If I registered my marriage in the Uk I would’ve had it easier.

Also the screening for thalassemia/sickle cell could be charged privately.. as it is totally up to the couple to bare the charge s if they want to take the risk. But I still consider it essential to be a legal obligation for those who are marrying relatives.. as it would make people think!

I would say to make genetic counselling also pre marriage compulsory.

Again most cousin marriages should be fine.

Unfortunately this would be hard to implement in this country because many people have kids before registering their marriage in the UK. Many do Islamic papers and then might or might not register later - which is something I have an issue with.

Again this issue doesn’t exist back in their home countries. Most religious bodies won’t register a marriage unless it’s legalised. So it is easy for there to be legal requirements.

I’m just giving an example of how I don’t think effort in this direction would be st all racist.. unless it is done without taking the relevant communities cultures into consideration.

A small focus group discussion with communities who practice cousin marriages including Hasidic Jews and Mormons and whoever else, would help brainstorm good solutions for effort in that direction surely. And I’m sure there will be many from within the community with such concern who will volunteer their efforts.

It’s really NOT a big TABOO

I don’t see how that’s representative of the Muslim community.

I don't doubt that for one moment, but there have been some knee jerk reactions from a couple of posters who seem keen to play the racist card in every post they have made.

Ginfordinner you are right about the knee jerk reactions, but I don’t think a few crackpots should be allowed to set the tone for what is a very important discussion.