Being a conductor is a bonkers job?!

[WineIsMyCarb]

Watching Last Night is the Proms. Not musical at all myself.
But AIBU to think that being a conductor is a bonkers job?! I see how someone is required to keep everyone's timing together, encourage more volume, say, from some instruments and less from more enthusiastic orchestral... members (?)
But your job is to wave your arms around in front and look moved or serious at seemingly random bits of music.
Lighthearted, in case anyone thinks I'm suggesting conductors should be taken as political prisoners or anything ludicrous.

What's the career path here? Did they work their way up from being a lowly recorder player doing Twinkle Twinkle at the back?

A conductor is a massive job.

Score study, knowing what your players can do and are capable of. And.... my favourite....inspiring your players to play well.

I always remember my school conductor saying that it wasn’t a magic wand he held

Ah, Knittingnanny, I'm well jel.

Barbara that's interesting that you switch. I remember the chamber orchestra at uni (that was mainly ex-NYO people, so technically everybody was outstandingly good) practically came to blows over who was put in violin 1 rather than 2. I wondered whether some of that feeling of a difference in prestige got carried through into professional orchestras.

I always remember my school conductor saying that it wasn’t a magic wand he held

But it looks like one! I've always thought it looks like the conductor is using a wand to control the orchestra.

There was a brilliant “getting celebrities to learn how to do things” programme once where they learned how to be conductors. It was fascinating.

'Maestro' it was called - it was brilliant wasn't it. Definitely puts paid to any illusions that conductors just wave their arms around! @WineIsMyCarb the last episode is on YouTube, it is worth a watch (though as ever, the earlier episodes where they are all crap are more entertaining ).

1st violins and 2nd violins are paid the same. As are the violas,cellos and basses.

There is a hierarchy,in simple terms the closer to the conductor you are the more you earn.

Private teaching (and many schools) pay more per hour usually than orchestral work.

Recording sessions are lucrative although don't seem so compared to 20 years ago.
Our Union sets the rate for sessions. TV and Film pay the best,classical the worst!

I feel lucky to have a job,it's extremely competitive. To give you an example of how you get an orchestral job in this industry...
We may have 200 applicants for one job. We will hear about 40 of them based on their CV's. We may choose about 8 to have a trial period and this can go on for 2 years. One lucky person (hopefully) will get the job.

In Europe and the States the job is given out on the day of the auditions to the best player. They usually have a probation period which is like our trial.

Ah, french horn players. We currently have one who looks like Cassian Andor from Rogue One. But I digress.

Frog I honestly don't know how professional orchestras feel about first versus second. In the classical period a lot of second violin parts are seriously dull, romantic era is variable, by the twentieth century they're typically closer to being equally demanding, just usually not as high.

Re a few pages back - another big Marin Alsop fan. Used to see her regularly when she conducted the Bournemouth SO. She's particularly good at Shostakovich.

It was from the days when celebrities actually had to put some work in to winning a reality show.......

Sarah thank you very interesting! I'd have guessed pay was linked to exposure, so woodwind would get more. Shows how much I know Though I do have a friend who got a position in a big major world orchestra so had a sense of how ridiculously gruelling the selection was.

I linked the first episode earlier. It's just it was uploaded back when youtube had a 10 minute limit on videos, so you have to watch it in parts and the parts don't follow on from each other as it is so old the algorithm doesn't catch it. Just search the same title replacing 1/9 with 2/9 etc.

There was a very good Proms Extra programme this year which was all about conductors and their different styles.

I saw the CBSO concert this year - I don't think the principal cellist looked at the conductor once, not even peripherally, unless he has eyes on the top of his head. I did wonder if it was because he was an older male and the conductor was younger and female.

Cross posted with Sarah - fascinating, thanks.

@Londonmummy66 if you're at the front you don't always need to look right at the conductor,you definitely use peripheral vision. Best to look at them at the beginning and the end though 😀

Ah sorry Bertie not sure how I missed that!

Can't beat this example of a band reacting to the conductor's every move:

@SarahBeeney - I know but there is no way he looked at her at all - it was incredibly pointed.....

@WineIsMyCarb you are awfully uncultured 😂🤣

When you think about it, it is a completely bonkers job. But it works.

It's not just about musicianship. In the same way that a great violinist may not be a very good oboist, it's just something that some people are better at than others.

As many have said, there's a lot in the preparation. Not just knowing the score, but going through it in detail to anticipate which sections are likely to cause problems in rehearsal, or performance, and how to rehearse those to improve them, and how to make the correct gestures to make the corners easier for the players. And while the facial expressions can seem somewhat self-indulgent, they are another way of communicating the feeling you want the orchestra to convey. The players use mostly peripheral vision to see the conductor, but most will flick a glance every few seconds, particularly at key moments. Knowing who, and how, to cue is crucial.

And also as previously stated, it is a very family unfriendly job. Lots of travel, weeks or months away from home, unsociable hours etc..

There are more and more female conductors coming through these days, some are very good. Others not so good, but it's the same with the men. An awful lot of "making it" in the career is about who you know and not what you know. Any decent orchestral musician will be able to tell from the first few bars if someone has been put in front of them because of nepotism rather than talent. And you'd be very surprised at how frequent it is, unfortunately.

Very appropriately, the Guardian is hosting a webchat with Simon Rattle right now! www.theguardian.com/music/live/2019/sep/09/simon-rattle-webchat

We know two very successful conductors. Both Oxbridge music graduates and, even among their very able university cohorts, were stand-out musical geniuses with huge intellects.

Conducting is a hugely important job and has a massive impact on how a piece of music is performed.

Thank you!!!

"You're doing it wrong... you're conducting faster than we're singing."
Hilarious!

I play in a few bands and musical groups, purely at an amateur level. But absolutely you need the conductor there. I like the analogy someone had earlier to the rear view mirror. At the very least you need to be able to see their downbeat.

One of the frustrations I have, as an instrumentalist who is usually seated near the back of the band, is that I set myself and my stand up so I have a clear view of the conductor. Then inevitably someone from the row in front comes in last minute, sits down and blocks my view entailing much shuffling around to try to get line of sight again.

To answer the other question about what instruments we play and why we chose them, I play the trombone. I first noticed the instrument when I was about 8 when we were watching the Royal Tournament thing on the TV and though it looked good. A few years later I started secondary school. It was just the local comprehensive but we were very lucky that they had fantastic musical provision. In those days instrumental lessons were free and the school had loads of instruments that they would lend at no cost. The music teacher asked us to put up our hand if we wanted to play an instrument then went around asking which instrument we fancied. Everyone else said clarinet and I was too self-conscious to say anything different so I said clarinet as well. There were not quite enough clarinets to go around so the teacher said we could go in at lunch time to take it in turns to have a go on the few available ones. I happened to mention to someone else there that really I fancied the trombone. This got back to the teacher and later that day he saw me and called me in to his classroom where he handed me a trombone in a case and said "Here take that home and bring it with you on Fridays. You have a lesson at 9am". I remember going home that evening saying "Mum! Look what I have got!"

5foot5 the glory days of school arts funding - can you imagine a secondary school doing that today?!