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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Being a conductor is a bonkers job?!

163 replies

WineIsMyCarb · 15/09/2019 22:34

Watching Last Night is the Proms. Not musical at all myself.
But AIBU to think that being a conductor is a bonkers job?! I see how someone is required to keep everyone's timing together, encourage more volume, say, from some instruments and less from more enthusiastic orchestral... members (?)
But your job is to wave your arms around in front and look moved or serious at seemingly random bits of music.
Lighthearted, in case anyone thinks I'm suggesting conductors should be taken as political prisoners or anything ludicrous.

What's the career path here? Did they work their way up from being a lowly recorder player doing Twinkle Twinkle at the back?

OP posts:
mrsmalcolmreynolds · 15/09/2019 23:21

For a highly entertaining (couldn't say how accurate - maybe professional musicians on the thread can comment? ) look at what a conductor does plus a load of other orchestral stuff, check out an Amazon series from a few years ago called Mozart in the Jungle.

Full disclosure - I was an oboist in school/county youth orchestras so probably biased...

WineIsMyCarb · 15/09/2019 23:23

Fascinating, thank you Anyway.
Would you mind if I asked if there is a good income to be had in the musical world? I'm not comparing it to Pop nonsense, but wondering if it's seen as a lawyer/Doctor/civil servant equivalent from and income and maybe class perspective and that's why people have an idea of classical music being elitist?

Your DDad must be over the moon and proud that you've built the career you have!

OP posts:
WineIsMyCarb · 15/09/2019 23:27

You're left handed knitted? GET OUT!! Grin

OP posts:
SarahBeeney · 15/09/2019 23:40

Conductors earn shit loads more than the players do.

There are many more female conductors than there used to be when I first stated playing professionally (20yrs ago).

It's sometimes hard to put into words what makes a great conductor,and I'm not sure that I can.

Also,conductors often specialise in a particular genre of music. For example,a baroque specialist conductor would not be at the helm for a Strauss opera.

Xitt · 15/09/2019 23:40

The orchestra each have a part in front of them but only the conductor has everyone's part in front of them and is reading them all at the same time
This is the key point really, and why conducting is so difficult.

Would you mind if I asked if there is a good income to be had in the musical world?
In my experience a full time musician in a well known UK orchestra can earn £30k if they’re at the top of their game. Obviously it’s much less if you aren’t employed full time or aren’t with a big name orchestra. European orchestras can pay more; US orchestras pay a lot more (you can be on £50-100k). Perhaps it’s seen as elitist because it doesn’t pay much so you need to have wealth from another source. Not to mention the cost of instruments and all the money your parents had to invest in tuition in the first place.

IHeartKingThistle · 15/09/2019 23:41

I'm in a brass band and by God do we need our conductor!

Knittingnanny · 15/09/2019 23:55

And I started violin because an old aunt had one that she passed on to me! Totally random choice.
Always loved the piano and was better at it but also liked being part of a group of musicians as well.
Sadly at 62 my fingers are getting arthritic and I don’t really play anymore. A lifetime of knitting and piano playing has given me bent old lady finger joints. Bet I could still wave a baton about though, still got one somewhere!

WipeYourFeetOnTheRhythmRug · 15/09/2019 23:58

@PerkingFaintly I LOVED the video you posted!

WineIsMyCarb · 16/09/2019 00:07

Yes, I wouldn't say that's a high salary for the amount of skill (hours spent learning x innate talent).

Is pay higher in rarer instruments? So annual salary of £5.75 for a violinist, and millions for a harpist? A harp has to be a tricky one to get to and from school on the bus, so perhaps there are fewer.

I will watch that @mrsmalcolmreynolds thank you

OP posts:
Xitt · 16/09/2019 00:22

Most of the musicians I know decided not to pursue it as a career because of the dire prospects. £30k if you’re one of the lucky ones in a secure full time job. But the odds were that you’d end up scrimping on a salary less than min wage, constantly hustling for work and doing side gigs such as teaching or even unrelated things such as driving a taxi.

Some of my friends gave it a go for a few years then when they got sick of being broke they became secondary school music teachers. Some still continue to chase their dreams and just put up with permanently being broke and unable to get a mortgage or anything. And many (like me) just went nope, I want to have a decent lifestyle so I’ll get a proper job and keep music as a hobby. Of course if you were born rich you can just enjoy playing music and not worry about having to make a living wage!

DontCallMeShitley · 16/09/2019 00:42

The conductor makes the entire thing work, some make it enthralling, others, like the one on Saturday make it uninspiring and dull.

I hate what they have done to the Proms, it resembled the NYE celebrations with all the chopping and changing. I hadn't seen it for a few years, and I only bothered with the end which is usually rousing and fun, however this time I gave up on that too and went to do the washing up which was much more fun. Sad to see what a farce it has become. Incredibly boring conducting.

Sorry, not lighthearted.

Graphista · 16/09/2019 02:41

Such a funny thread!

I'm "musical" but not professional. Vocalist (been singing publicly since I was 4) and I also play (although more accurately should say "played" as its been years since I've touched an instrument) flute and violin. I can knock out a tune "by ear" on piano but I've never taken lessons for that.

I know a few conductors and it's really a HUGE job. Not only the skill musically (which is massive enough) but the interpersonal skills as that's effectively managing on a per note basis usually a minimum of around 40 players!

They DO notice if ONE person in a 90 piece plays ONE note flat! It's quite something to witness (and horrible to experience if it's you playing the bloody flat note!!)

To be fair most jobs are bonkers if you over analyse them.

Shelf stacking? Not just putting the goods on the shelves but doing it in such a way as it looks nice!

Data entry? Sitting doing "fill in the blanks" with numbers all day

Pretty much ANY acting job? I'm currently watching person of interest so a bunch of grown adults wearing costumes and shooting fake weapons and pretending the world is run by one software programme - BONKERS!!

How did I end up playing those instruments? Started off with recorder as many do, picked it up really quickly and could play any size except bass (small hands), the teacher who was taking us for this said to my parents there was a programme where I could learn the flute in school if I/we were interested, the teacher that taught the programme came into a "spare" violin at a point where I was considering another instrument (and I wanted a change from woodwinds) so it all kind of went from learning recorder initially.

My parents wouldn't consider themselves musical, my dad cannot hold a tune to save his life! But mum can sing fairly well (but is very shy and apart from chapel would never sing publicly) and can even pick out a simple melody on a keyboard or play one on recorder.

Bro plays guitar and sis can play trumpet at a basic level but never took exams as she wasn't that interested (there were some arguments over that)

I do find it means I struggle watching any "lay people being musical" stuff like X factor or bgt (which dd used to love watching) because I DO hear every bum note and can't help but wince! Which dd used to find hilarious!

AlliKaneErikson · 16/09/2019 04:24

Ooh- euphonium player here who can actually answer your question above. I became a euphonium player because I fancied the other euphonium player in my local brass band (we are now married!!). To be fair, I already played the flute (which I just fancied trying, rather than fancying and players!!) and the piano, which my mum taught. I’ve also done lots of conducting, which really is not as easy as it looks. An ex bf went on to be a ‘proper’ professional conductor of some high profile groups but gave it up to go into publishing. The top conductors can earn a lot but others not so much.

AlliKaneErikson · 16/09/2019 04:28

PS this is a great thread, OP- loving hearing about everyone’s experiences! We need a MN Brass Band or orchestra!!

PhilCornwall1 · 16/09/2019 04:52

Interesting @Xitt - I can't imagine how to effectively mime "skip this bit, she's gone off on one!"

The conductor does a crafty "eye roll" and the musicians know that means "the squeaky twat at the front has fucked up."

CrystalShark · 16/09/2019 04:58

As a musician it kinda blows my mind that someone couldn’t see the crucial job a conductor does, but it makes sense if you’ve never been part of that ‘world’ so I like that you asked! I immediately think orchestral conductor when I hear the word so was pleasantly surprised to find that is what you meant!

I studied music as a degree and did a bit of conducting in the first year but didn’t choose to pursue it (musicology was more my thing). It’s incredibly difficult tbh. The stick is super lightweight and feels quite pleasing to hold as it feels slightly weighted at the bit you hold but is then featherlight for the rest of it!

As others have mentioned, a conducter interprets a piece of music and how they think it should sound, so much of it is down to interpretation even with well known pieces. For example in Rachmaninoff’s third piano concerto there’s a cadenza section around 8-12 minutes into the first movement, that’s played very differently depending on the soloist rather than the conductor but if you listen to how Horowitz plays it and then go listen to how Olga Kern plays it it’s like an entirely separate piece of music. Horowitz leaves me cold (despite being the more respected esteemed pianist) and as it’s the highlight of the entire concerto for me I wouldn’t love it anywhere near as much as I do if I’d only ever known his version. Whereas the type of style Kern plays it in makes it pretty much the most euphoria inducing orchestral piece I’ve ever heard. I’ve seen it live many times and on occasion it’s seriously felt like my chair was on fire my body has responded so strongly to it emotionally, heavy breathing, eyes streaming, just on another plane of this universe. Whereas Horowitz? Wouldn’t even use it as a ringtone 😂 and it’s the same for non solo concerto pieces, the way a conductor decides to interpret the piece and then put it together week after week in rehearsals can make for a performance that inspires or bores, brings something new to the table or rehashes tradition, and two members of the audience will feel entirely differently either way! The written sheet music hasn’t changed, composer is often long dead, but the nuance and subtle or overt differences are what make music so powerful imo and it’s fhe conductor that has the power to infuse the music with new meaning.

Of course there’s the mechanics of keeping time but it’s a lot more than that. After any length of time playing in an orchestra you develop peripheral vision, so even if the musicians don’t seem to be directly looking at the conductor very often (they usually do when they’re waiting to come in) they can see them peripherally. Or tell by listening to the rest of the ensemble what’s going on. Don’t forget there’s a lead instrumentalist in most sections that the rest also take their cues from as well.

They have to know every single note inside out, however long the piece, and know (and judge) at each bar which instrument is most sonically important so they can focus on that person and via movements encourage the sound, dynamics, timbre, they want to hear. And let’s not forget the thousands conductors of amateur orchestras who aren’t just working with professionals, they’re working with amateur local orchestras made up of people who have other day jobs or with kids, there’s a real teaching element to a lot of conducting at that level, stimulating new ideas and understanding of music, encouraging confidence, making eye contact with the nervous ten year old sole bassoon player right before a sparse section where they need to come in on time with a rhythmically complex tune that will be heard by everyone.

Love this thread!

CrystalShark · 16/09/2019 05:03

You should also have a look at a page of sheet music for the first violin in any given concerto, versus the page of the full score the conductor has in front of them :P which by the time of the performance they’ve pretty much memorised. Even as someone fluent in reading sheet music it’s a daunting task fo imagine being able to read and synthesise that amount of information all in one go, on the spot, with everyone looking to you for guidance and authority, before even moving into the higher artistic considerations of interpretation and flair/style. It’s an incredible amount of information in what is to non-musicians a foreign language. And across multiple staves there are of course many different clefs, so a quaver on the middle line might well be a B for the instruments playing in treble clef whereas it’s a D for those in the bass clef, over simplifying a bit there but you see my point.

PhilCornwall1 · 16/09/2019 05:04

@CrystalShark there have been some funny comments on this thread, which are great to read, but your post was so interesting to read. Beautifully written too.

CrystalShark · 16/09/2019 05:15

To answer a previous question: I started playing the violin first as I was at primary school and one day they just happened to ask if I wanted to learn. I was lucky to have a mother who was VERY passionate about music, orchestral Russian stuff especially (she had me listening to Tchaikovsky from when I was in the womb) who jumped at the chance and encouraged me a lot during those early years when it sounds terrible. She wasn’t a musician, never had the option or time or money, but the most passionate about music person I ever knew other than how I ended up being. I never really enjoyed the violin tbh but ended up progressing to the second to highest grade anyway just due to the passage of time, I was very mediocre though, but it was a fantastic instrument for being able to join orchestras locally which helped my development massively and I was able to play concerts several times each year from being around ten with the local music service.

But when I was a teenager I got into Muse and desperately wanted to play the piano like Matt Bellamy, started lessons and realised that was ‘my instrument’, I fell in love with it. Later on I picked up the flute for a couple of years as I wanted to join the windband as my closest friends were all clarinet players and weren’t up to the standard of the orchestra I was in, and I played guitar for a few years inspired by the bands I was into in my teens. But these days as an adult only play the piano and for my own pleasure now.

I was only able to get started on that track, and subsequently end up with a music degree (as a kid who dropped out of college, I was so lucky to get in to study music and wouldn’t have been able to attend uni otherwise) due to heavily subsidised lessons in my council estate primary school and free violin hire as we couldn’t have afforded private lessons at that time (later on my parents did pay for them, they scrimped and saved and went without a lot so I could keep going once the cheap school lessons were over). These days I’m not sure many schools have such a robust music service offering working class kids the chance to learn an instrument, I know my peripatetic music teacher friends have had their hours and pay slashed. I’m expecting my first child now and feel very very fortunate we’ve waited until we’re in a good position financially to start a family as I can introduce him to music early and see what he likes/has aptitude for, rather than him just picking up any random instrument that’s available, we can afford private lessons and I hope to start around three or four, not waiting until seven like I was. There’s a lot to be said for starting early as soon as they have the cognitive ability and manual dexterity to make use of lessons, their brains are like little sponges at that age. Of course I’ll never force him into anything he doesn’t enjoy, but I’d be surprised if with me as his mother he doesn’t end up with some kind of passion for music one way or another (I secretly dream of him taking to the drums as I’m an absolute sucker for percussion and time signatures and rhythms 😂).

VanillaSugarr · 16/09/2019 05:18

Here is a link to a brilliant young conductor.

anitadatta.com/

Nancydrawn · 16/09/2019 05:42

Here is a piece of conductor's sheet music (Stravinsky). It's a mind-bogglingly difficult and important job, as if the director of the play were onstage at the same time as the company and subtly changed the performance every night based on a thousand variable.

I have a friend who's an international conductor. Decade of training, including a serious degree from one of the best conservatories in the world, and willingness to move around the world to chase opportunities.

As for salary, it depends where you are. The LA Symphony is, I think, still the best paid for musicians (averaging round $145k last time I heard, although it might have changed). As for music directors/conductors at top places, they're making millions (the head of the NY Philharmonic made over $3.5 million last year, though the average for the big orchestras across the country is more like $500k and a mid-size orchestra much less). But this is also an American thing--salaries tend to be much higher here across the board.

Being a conductor is a bonkers job?!
narkedinNI · 16/09/2019 07:03

I started playing two instruments in early primary school and carried them on in secondary and my school orchestra was fairly well up the school orchestra league table not that that exists. The flapping was never, ever explained to us so other than counting us in no one actually looked at him, he seemed to be in another world when conducting in performances so I do think that there was a 'public' element to it. In rehearsals he mostly threw sheet music at us and told us how terrible we were Hmm

megletthesecond · 16/09/2019 07:11

I never thought about the weeks of rehearsals that a conductor does beforehand. I assumed the Last Night of the Proms conductor just turned up for that performance Blush.

MarieVanGoethem · 16/09/2019 07:16

TBF, not sure it’s so much the job that merits the descriptor as [some of] the people doing it...

Is incredibly skilled work though - being able to pick out “one of the second violins has just played an f-sharp AGAIN, do you need me to come over there & mark your score for you whoever you are?” from full orchestra & choir is quite a skill. Stalking round the first sopranos one rehearsal on a mission to discover who was committing the cardinal sin of singing domine as “doh-min-nay” was... special, even for the conductor in question though. But he’s a total perfectionist & it was genuinely hilarious seeing him try to cope with someone (whose conductor!pic looked like a 1930s matinee idol) take a very relaxed rehearsal with us. (Sadly for us, own!conductor was taking copious notes about our many MANY failings & rehearsed us again himself. Properly. None of this “very nice, now we make the last three bars again & continue please” business...)

CrystalShark · 16/09/2019 07:23

I never thought about the weeks of rehearsals that a conductor does beforehand. I assumed the Last Night of the Proms conductor just turned up for that performance

Ah! Well I can see why you’d wonder why they’re so special then 😂 so many hours of rehearsals go into a performance, many people assume that as it’s professional musicians they just rock up and play perfectly but it takes a lot of time to gel it all together :)

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