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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Being a conductor is a bonkers job?!

163 replies

WineIsMyCarb · 15/09/2019 22:34

Watching Last Night is the Proms. Not musical at all myself.
But AIBU to think that being a conductor is a bonkers job?! I see how someone is required to keep everyone's timing together, encourage more volume, say, from some instruments and less from more enthusiastic orchestral... members (?)
But your job is to wave your arms around in front and look moved or serious at seemingly random bits of music.
Lighthearted, in case anyone thinks I'm suggesting conductors should be taken as political prisoners or anything ludicrous.

What's the career path here? Did they work their way up from being a lowly recorder player doing Twinkle Twinkle at the back?

OP posts:
bigshiplittleboat · 16/09/2019 07:23

My husband and I are both professional musicians, classically trained at music college. Out of our closest group of friends from music college we are the some of the only ones still working as musicians in our 30s, most others have found other jobs, mostly retraining as classroom teachers. We freelance, which when it works is more lucrative than having an orchestral job, and although I don’t earn much at the moment due to being on mat leave, at full earning power (juggling childcare) we bring in 50-60k between us. We have to juggle a lot of different roles to make it work: orchestral extra work, freelance performing in other groups and session work, peri (instrumental) teaching, community/healthcare music (I am a specialist in this), we run a wedding business supplying a specific type of music for weddings (this is our back-up for if we can’t play due to illness etc. as we are able to charge admin fees and share the playing work with other musicians). It has taken a lot of work to build up, but I wouldn’t change it now as we have complete control and flexibility over our time, which is important to me for our kids, and several different solid income streams - my DH recently lost one of his main ones due to an orchestra filling the positions he had been an extra for on a regular basis for the past three years, but it’s ok because he just picked up a couple more students and we marketed the business a bit more. I still regularly get asked to work for free or asked what my day job is!

MissPhryneFisher · 16/09/2019 07:25

I had the privilege of being conducted by John Rutter at masterclass thing a few years back - the difference a conductor who really knows their stuff makes Shock. And he got a collection of about 300 singers, of varying standards Wink to sound incredible in just one afternoon. Plus I'm now 8 handshakes away from Handel Grin.

BarbaraStrozzi · 16/09/2019 07:25

I see someone's already linked to Sue Perkins' article on the show, but if you can track down a copy somewhere, I really recommend the BBC show Maestro, where they take a group of people and teach them how to conduct. The final of the second series - mathematician Marcus du Sautoy v choreographer Craig Revell Norwood - was fascinating and hilarious (just because of the difference in personalities). By that stage both of them were getting pretty good, and they gave them a bit of opera involving pit orchestra, soloists, onstage chorus, off stage chorus and off stage trumpets - and they had to juggle all of it.

BTW, much as I love Sue Perkins, Goldie wuz robbed in the first series. Grin

(Waves to fellow brass player who took up the euphonium because she fancied one of the other players - teenage me did the same with the French horn).

BertieBotts · 16/09/2019 07:28

That article linked above is fascinating. I was going to say Sue Perkins wrote the documentary in her book Spectacles, which was quitte funny. I'd never really thoght about what a conductor does before I read that.

Minnie747 · 16/09/2019 07:34

Ooh he’s great @PerkingFaintly (misses point of thread...)

BertieBotts · 16/09/2019 07:34
SoupDragon · 16/09/2019 07:39

I've never played in an orchestra and thus never followed a conductor but I do find that the baton waving makes sense. I imagine it "makes sense" to me more in the way that a dance makes sense though. I can see how they indicate the tone etc.

PerkingFaintly · 16/09/2019 07:58

Rattle's been my concert hall crush since his hair was dark and he was transforming the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra.

Fluffsmum · 16/09/2019 08:31

This has been a very interesting thread. Thanks OP.

I did initially think you meant train!

Stillfunny · 16/09/2019 08:43

I thought it was going to be a spoof about Thomas the Tank Engine.'s conductor!Grin

SisyphusDad · 16/09/2019 08:45

Fascinating thread. Thanks OP.

I too remember - and enjoyed - Maestro. I voted for Sue Perkins because I thought Goldie was going to walk it, and then felt hugely guilty when she won! I thought they both were brilliant. Would love to see it again.

BogglesGoggles · 16/09/2019 08:49

A musician plays and instrument, a conductor plays and orchestra. The ultimate character and tone of the performance is a result of the conductor. It’s more than just supervising rehearsals and keeping time. The really good conductors bring their own interpretation to the piece.

BarbaraStrozzi · 16/09/2019 08:56

I've done a little bit of choir conducting in my time - my very amateur efforts have made me realise how incredibly difficult it is, and left me with a huge respect for conductors.

One moment lives in my memory - college choir, noses down in copies, getting slower and s l o w e r. I try to speed them up. One of the altos looks up (surprise) and frowns (double surprise - she's now actually thinking about what I'm doing), then stops, a puzzled look on her face. I stop the choir and ask what the matter is.

"You're doing it wrong... you're conducting faster than we're singing."

procrastinatergeneral · 16/09/2019 09:06

I agree with PPs about the lack of female conductors; the posh white male school of conducting is gradually dying out but atm there’s definitely more male than female in the top jobs 😢. m.youtube.com/channel/UCf0AwCz91dMxOxfFujBMYtQ/videos (Female conductors)
And echo PPs about the importance of the job, I would say I’m high level amateur (although have been paid for the odd gig) and we are all watching but mostly in peripheral vision. If the conductor feels the orchestra is not paying attention in rehearsals you will probably hear “Eyes!” I once did a show where the musicians were on stage with the actor and no conductor; our brilliant rehearsal conductor said it was actually quite tricky to translate the things she would have said with her body language into words once we started rehearsing without her standing in front of us.

As to how you choose an instrument- personally I was taken to toddler music/ recorder classes, then someone played a solo on my instrument in an orchestra my Dsis was part of and it blew me away aged eight. Now I can’t imagine playing another instrument when I’m part of an orchestra. Worth noting though that Dsis and I both also played recorder to a fairly high standard (her more so than me) - it can actually sound nice and it’s not just a beginner’s instrument!

BlackberriesAndCream · 16/09/2019 09:29

Yes there is a lot of sexism in the music industry still, although it's changing. The conductor is the authority - what he/she says, goes - so like in many fields, it has traditionally been harder for a woman to be accepted as 'the boss'. You need to follow what the conductor has decided, in terms of tempo, articulation, character, etc, whether you like it or not, you need to obey all their commands in rehearsal - they decide what bit is going to be rehearsed and how, and it's done until they're satisfied, etc., so they are very much in charge.

They also have a huge wealth of musical knowledge behind them that informs how they decide to approach a piece. Our conductor (amateur orchestra but with a professional conductor) is full of knowledge and stories about the composers, the pieces, the time period etc, how it all links together, and how that influences the piece and his interpretation of it. He knows so much about it all, and that's before you even get to the actual conducting bit! Conducting itself is hard, too - most pieces don't stay in one tempo, many have really complicated time signatures that change frequently - and if he doesn't make it clear exactly what is happening, people will make mistakes and the whole thing sounds awful and can fall apart. Much of the amazing bits of music come from the tension, the rests, the anticipation between chords, etc., - and if that goes wrong, the magic will be lost. It might sound 'ok' to a listener, all the right notes are there, but nothing more. There are huge differences between a good conductor who keeps the orchestra together, and a great conductor, who really makes magic. (And of course, a bad conductor, who can't even keep everyone together!).

It takes ages to learn to do it well. People can learn the basics of the arm movements - most music teachers can keep a choir together with straightforward beating, for example - but to conduct a whole orchestra is hard, and to really get your interpretation across, harder still.

The conductors I've known usually have played a couple of instruments seriously as children/youth, and spent a lot of time in youth orchestras, or choirs. At some point, they decide they're more interested in conducting, and may get a chance to try with school ensembles or at university. Playing chamber music can also help, as you're kind of all involved in keeping it together and seeing how things fit, even if there isn't one person in charge. Then if they are serious about doing it professionally, they would usually then study music. Some do a music degree on their instrument first and then decide to conduct later, others do conducting as their first study. I have met one conductor who is now very good who did kind of learn on the job, but he was already a professional musician and very talented.

conductors have to be good with people, too. To get the orchestra to do exactly what you want, you need to have a good rapport with them. You have to criticise constructively, sometimes repeatedly, keep them interested and on side, etc. - very much teamwork needed. So someone with excellent music skills can lack that people-side, and never really get to the top of their career. I know a conductor like this - he could be excellent, but he just puts everyone's back up, constantly.

There are lots of music concerts for children around (I suspect I know who the superman conductor was, and although that might not be the best performance to recommend, I think they are usually very good!), and many of them introduce the instruments and children can hear the different sounds etc. Many of them might be drawn to something in particular. Piano is always useful, regardless of which orchestral instrument someone tries as well. Some children find it easier to read only one line of music, so beginning on another instrument might be easier for them as you can make quicker progress. Some like faster results - string instruments can be quite slow to sound good, but are beautiful in the end - whereas brass can be faster to get to sound OK. Some take a lot of puff, which doesn't suit some children. Others tend to end up with more solo parts in orchestras, which doesn't suit some children. Others are happy being part of a large section. So loads of reasons to try different ones until you find the one that clicks.

HappydaysArehere · 16/09/2019 09:33

When I was a young child I thought the music came out of the batons. I waved knitting needles with great energy and was disappointed. This was in the forties and we had no tv so did this while listening to the radio.

PaneerOfEvil · 16/09/2019 09:41

In the top level orchestras, the musicians could probably play without a conductor - in terms of keeping together - so the conductor is much more about interpretation and musicality etc.

frogsoup · 16/09/2019 09:41

Listen to the same piece of music played by two different orchestras. Sound completely different? That's because of choices about the music made by...the conductor. They put their interpretation on the music, communicate it to the orchestra and from there to the audience. Hugely skilled job!

BlackberriesAndCream · 16/09/2019 09:43

oh and another point about the lack of female conductors - besides the whole history/tradition and all the inherent sexism already - there is also the fact that it is a family unfriendly job. Of course this shouldn't be a reason to stop women progressing, but it does. When you get to a really serious professional level, it involves a lot of travel, tours, time away from family, evening performances most nights, close bonds with a different group that's not family, etc. Conductors are in a position of power and authority, are often respected, well known, have fans. Their personal relationships have to be very secure, I think. I know some who have struggled with their personal lives as a result, and that's just at an amateur or semi-professional level.

I'm also always so impressed at the multi-tasking ability of conductors when conducting - knowing exactly who has gone wrong, picking out the slightly out-of-tune note, knowing what is wrong with it and what to fix, how to explain what they want and get things right, etc. They often have beautiful analogies (well maybe not beautiful but very effective and evocative of what they want) - describing in metaphor what something should or should not sound like. All of that takes an incredible ear, and sense of communication, and ability to multi-task and prioritise on the go etc. And they have to have an amazing sense of timing and rhythm, too. Lots of skills needed!

onemorecupofcoffeefortheroad · 16/09/2019 09:53

My sister and I once went to a concert by the Liverpool Philharmonic. Just before the interval the conductor asked the audience if anyone would like to have a go at conducting after the interval. My sister put herself forward - the orchestra had to respond to her actual "conducting" - which they did and it was both a shambles and hilariously funny.

My sister and I had sung in choirs and played musical instruments in orchestras so we had some experience but it made us realise properly for the first time the importance of the conductor's job

frogsoup · 16/09/2019 09:57

Though while there are professional orchestral musicians about, I have my own question! In amateur orchestras, on balance the 1st violins will tend to be better players than the 2nd violins, ditto for other instruments. Is there an equivalent in professional orchestras? Clearly it's not at the level of 1st violins will get their fast semi-quavers in the right place while the violin 2s have their bowing out of sync, but does playing 1st mean more prestige/pay? And do you get to violin 1 by virtue of seniority in the orchestra, or is it more 'there's a violin 1 job going' and relatively speaking that'll get more applications and more skilled players than a violin 2 opening? Enlightenment appreciated Grin

CandyLeBonBon · 16/09/2019 10:01

What a brilliantly interesting thread 😁

BarbaraStrozzi · 16/09/2019 10:14

Violin 1 and 2 have to be equally competent (my amateur orchestra has a rotation system to ensure the sections stay balanced). It's more a case of which job comes up when.

Knittingnanny · 16/09/2019 10:15

Perking, re Simon Rattle, I did my teacher training in Birmingham and was lucky enough to go to some great concerts
Ah waving the knitting needles, if I can’t locate my 1980’s baton I’ll use one of my needles! Good plan

Knittingnanny · 16/09/2019 10:17

Unlike amateur school orchestras! I never progressed from back row of the 2nd violins
And what was it about french horn players?! I had an enormous crush on one in my local youth orchestra in 1973, too busy looking at him to notice the conductor.