table manners

[hondagirl500]

Step son - Mike, and his wife, Jane, are divorced. One child, Belle. (I can't stand all the abbreviations, can't follow...). They don't live particularly close to us, but see Mike's mum Louise (my husbands ex) regularly.

Mike had Belle this weekend, and came to our house. Mike had to run some errands, so left Belle with me for a couple of hours. She is 8. Not a problem, we played games, did crafts. Later yesterday, Mike took Belle to a birthday party, and then back to ours for bed.

Which brings me to today, Sunday. My husband and Mike took Belle to see her great grandmother this morning, whilst I prepped Sunday lunch.
Roast beef, yorkies, veg, roasties….

Belle tried to cut her potatoes, but held the fork like a dagger (made a fist, fork held in it if that makes sense) and the knife like a pen. Obviously it wasn't working very well! I showed her how to hold them correctly. She tried, but went back to her way. Mike told me to leave her, it didn't matter. She was then sitting with her knee up on the chair, against the table - I asked her to sit properly. Again, glares from Mike. She got up as soon as she finished eating, but not having finished her meal. I told her that it was polite to 'ask to leave the table', not just get up. Mike told me 'we don't bother with that'.

So, AIBU to insist on table manners - sit properly, use the cutlery properly? TBH, I can't believe that her mother Jane, and Louise don't seem to enforce these?

The way you use cutlery isn’t personal preference. There’s one correct way and people who don’t use it are judged.

I think you'll find that there a number of ways you can "correctly" eat with cutlery, or in the case of some cultures, without it. There are also plenty of ways to do things that the majority of people will think rude/wrong.

“I think you'll find that there a number of ways you can "correctly" eat with cutlery,“

None where holding your fork in your fist ant stabbing your food is acceptable.

We owe it to our children to teach them what is considered acceptable behaviour in the culture they are growing up in. They can then, as adults, decide whether or not to follow the conventions. Knowledge is power.

But we’re such a multicultural society now.. in a canteen with Brits, Americans, someone from Japan, and someone from Africa, who’s to say which person is holding their cutlery (or not) correctly? It’s just not something I’d really notice, let alone judge for. (I do believe you should chew with your mouth closed, not interrupt when someone is speaking, etc, so it’s not that I’m against manners or anything!)

At 8 I would expect far better table manners but then I'm a stickler for them. Mine ate correctly before starting school, obviously tougher meats need help until about 5 but they knew how to use cutlery (and chopsticks)

I still think much of this is snobbishness. and narrow-minded, little-Englander attitudes.
personally I don't care how cutlery is held. it doesn't affect me. I don't notice, and I wouldn't have much in common with people who seriously think it is important, as if they are morally superior.
manners include eating considerately and not disgusting other people.
but those who are offended by eg holding fork in right hand or whatever have never really lived, lost, or suffered.
if that's what you think life is about, well, it's your opinion but don't try and make it into a moral absolute.
I heard a piece on the radio about a grand embassy dinner somewhere. asparagus tips were served. the English, bet they weren't Scottish/welsh/irish, picked them up with dipping butter and ate them with their fingers.
they were very embarrassed to see the Americans eating them with knife and fork. they were embarrassed for them, at the Americans' ignorance of correct dining habits.
Do you think any of the Americans were embarrassed or even noticed/ cared.
That's my point. and I am british by the way.

The correct etiquette on eating aparagus is to follow the host's lead.

And I am Irish , btw.

“The correct etiquette on eating aparagus is to follow the host's lead.“

But if you are the host- fingers.

Actually, on reflection, the correct etiquette on something abstruse like asparagus is to follow your guest’s lead.

I too would have noticed the child's lack of table manners and probably inwardly have flinched, but I don't think I would have said anything.

The dinner table was such a stressful place for me as a kid. I hated family meal times and often pretended not to be hungry so I could get away.
I now make sure that in our house, family meals are relaxed and fun. My kids can hold s knife and fork properly but if they couldn’t I would gently encourage it. We sit in the chairs how we are comfortable. My DD often kneels on her seat. We talk, we laugh, the table gets a little messy, we don’t ask to leave the table or be excused, elbows are allowed. This might horrify some of you but we love our time at the table together.
It isn’t uncivilised or rude, it’s just relaxed.

I don't think you are wrong to try to help her use her cutlery properly.

I probably would have left the other bits as her parent was there and had commented and just had a quiet word later. However, your house your rules really, my dm wouldn't think twice about asking my kids (or me!) to sit properly.

As a youth leader I have 13year olds who cannot cut their food up because they haven't been taught how to use cutlery properly or at the very least efficiently. An awful lot of the younger ones would prefer to sit on the floor, the entire concept of sitting at the table is lost on them.

Table manners are important, but there's a time and place to teach them. This is a child you don't see often, because she doesn't live close by, and a rare meal at a step-grandmother's house really doesn't seem to me to be the right moment, especially when her your step-son made it clear repeatedly that he wanted you to stop going on at his daughter about it.

With all the extraneous information in your OP about the exact menu for dinner, and the visit to the great-grandmother, and the fact that Belle sees her other grandmother more often, I can't help feeling that you decided to leverage the meal into a way of criticising Belle's mother and other grandmother.

Not correct Bertrand.

“We talk, we laugh, the table gets a little messy, we don’t ask to leave the table or be excused,“

So do people just leave at any point? This is the one thing in all this I don’t understand! How does this work?

@BertrandRussell if they’re finished or they need to go to the toilet, then urs. They do just get up. Usually we say where we’re going. Adults stay until children are finished generally- unless they have somewhere they need to be.

Yes, not urs. No idea what happened there.

DS (8) has had nearly all meals of his life at the table... He struggles to manipulate cutlery. He sits in awkward positions often with his knees up in the air. He has to be reminded to sit on the chair, line the plate up and to use cutlery. Left to himself, he will stand there and palm it into his face. He sits at a chair with arms so he doesn't slither off sideways. We've reverted back to plastic cutlery because it's easier to manipulate.

He's recently been diagnosed with dyspraxia. We couldn't get anywhere with dyslexia and dyspraxia testing before 8 even though it's been obvious for years. He finds holding items like cutlery and pens painful. Sitting still is uncomfortable. As well as struggling with his motor skills, his sense of routine/ patterns is affected, hence needing reminding to sit and use cutlery.

I do work on his manners, but he needs soft handling. He is easily overloaded by the areas of his life that are a challenge to him, and meals can be a sensory challenge anyway. Being nagged by extended family is likely trigger a meltdown or resistant behaviour (I suspect that he would rather "fail" under his own terms than without control when he reaches this stage). I would discourage a family member from criticising him not because I don't care about his manners, but because they need dealing with sensitively to his mood and ability to cope. Being told by another family member is not going to magically work when thousands of meals around the table at home/ nursery/ school and even in a tent have not worked at rewiring his brain.

He does ask about leaving the table... I might have instructions for the next thing to do, or ask for the pleasure of his company while he finishes (for a family dinner, lingering to the end may be too long) We are also more sucessful on chewing with mouth open/ talking when mouth full.

I raise all this because there are children who genuinely struggle with eating skills at 8, and it's an age where some higher functioning SNs only just start being picked up and they may well not be identified at this stage. Some children have poor manners because they haven't been taught, but if they have had the regular example, it is possible that there may be an underlying reason.

My house my rules. If you want to eat in my house you sit at the table with both feet on the floor, you use cutlery and everyone stays at the table until everyone is finished. There is a pub down the road that serves food if you cant or wont follow these very simple rules

The time to teach the child table manners is when the child is yours. So your DP should have taught their own child table manners in a way that was sufficient enough for them to be able to teach their own child once a parent.

If your DP didn't teach his own son this at the time then it's too late now.

The problem with grandparents stepping in is that they think they know best, but their 'knowledge' is very often out of date. As pp have pointed out, most of your 'polite' rules are now considered very rude and unacceptable. It's not acceptable to treat children the way you did, you were very rude by modern standards.

thecatinthetwat How can it be rude to teach a child how to use cutlery or tell them off for putting their feet on your furniture ?