table manners

[hondagirl500]

Step son - Mike, and his wife, Jane, are divorced. One child, Belle. (I can't stand all the abbreviations, can't follow...). They don't live particularly close to us, but see Mike's mum Louise (my husbands ex) regularly.

Mike had Belle this weekend, and came to our house. Mike had to run some errands, so left Belle with me for a couple of hours. She is 8. Not a problem, we played games, did crafts. Later yesterday, Mike took Belle to a birthday party, and then back to ours for bed.

Which brings me to today, Sunday. My husband and Mike took Belle to see her great grandmother this morning, whilst I prepped Sunday lunch.
Roast beef, yorkies, veg, roasties….

Belle tried to cut her potatoes, but held the fork like a dagger (made a fist, fork held in it if that makes sense) and the knife like a pen. Obviously it wasn't working very well! I showed her how to hold them correctly. She tried, but went back to her way. Mike told me to leave her, it didn't matter. She was then sitting with her knee up on the chair, against the table - I asked her to sit properly. Again, glares from Mike. She got up as soon as she finished eating, but not having finished her meal. I told her that it was polite to 'ask to leave the table', not just get up. Mike told me 'we don't bother with that'.

So, AIBU to insist on table manners - sit properly, use the cutlery properly? TBH, I can't believe that her mother Jane, and Louise don't seem to enforce these?

If the child wants to be there, they obey the rules. If you want your child to be there, they obey the rules.

My sister lives in an odd place where you have to be quiet. When we visit my DC know it’s “church voices”. Victorian or not, I don’t care. Thems the rules. They get a choice whether they want to visit (theybsee their aunt elsewhere also) but didn’t when they were younger.

I taught my younger sister table manners (alcoholic mother meant she was too far gone for much of anything by then) and made a game of it. It’s not difficult. It separates people though. You may as well be on the side of manners and politeness , what is there to lose?

Manners are important but it is part of good manners in many countries, including the UK, that you do not comment on other people's manners unless you are in a position of authority over them or their behaviour impacts directly on you or your children. It is hard to argue that the way your stepson's dd holds her cutlery impacts on you, and you are not close enough for it to be your job to teach her. So you were not modelling perfect manners here.

Holding cutlery in an odd way isn't really bad manners anyway, and may be to do with development/weak ligaments in a child. I still hold things awkwardly but I was 45 before I found out the reason (congenital weakness).

I agree that at 8 I'd expect more, but if her df is there then it isn't your place to correct her.

Table manners lasts a life time .
Pig ignorance also does sadly.
But I know what I prefer.
I know a family that have NO table manners whatsoever to the point that one of them eats chow mien with their fingers.
Sadly I see bad manners in all aspects of life.

I even make my 19 month old use table manners, (spoon and fork instead of a knife) but he holds them pretty well and hes been told to say "mama down" if he wants to leave the table rather than just get up and leave, never too young to try!

YANBU to be appalled at her table manners, which are absolutely dreadful and rude. I personally can't stand it when kids (assuming they are physically capable of it) don't sit at a table and eat a meal properly and leaving the table when other people are still eating is rude regardless of whether it's a child or an adult.

However, if her parents haven't bothered to teach her how to be pleasant company at the table, it's not really your place to do it, especially if her parents are right there in the room and saying nothing. I can see why you were wound up by it, though.

If she doesn't come over regularly- I'd say not really your place. I expect table manners. If I have kids on my own, they will abide by the table rules, but if this is a kid you don't see often, I would spend the time you do picking them up on so many things- it would have probably really annoyed Mike to have his daughter constantly picked on by his SM for the whole meal. If this was a weekly thing, then sure, enforce your rules. Otherwise I'd say back off.

I find it interesting those saying that they find asking to leave the table subservient, as you wouldn't ask as an adult. As an adult though, you also don't leave the table until everyone is finished- I've never walked off on a family meal and gone to colour in or read. I see the asking to leave more as a I'm done, your convo is boring, and I'd like to go do something more fun whilst you still around and chat, than anything else. As an adult I've never walked away from the table before the other adult guests.

If the parents aren't bothered to teach her, how is the child ever to master using cutlery efficiently? It will place her at a huge social disadvantage later on.

Granny's house might be the last chance saloon! I wouldn't go the 'not like that, like this,' route, but you could try, "Belle, would you like me to show you how to make your knife and fork do the work for you?" and see if she is interested.

If not, don't be noticing her struggles until she asked you to cut her food up for her, to which you could say, "I won't do it for you but I will show you how to do it for yourself. Then you won't need to ask anyone for help cutting up your food ever again."

Perhaps at home they have casseroles or similar where she can just fork it in, or lots of finger food.

I am always surprised to see people hold a knife as though it were a pen; you can't get any sort of pressure that way so it might as well be a fork anyway!

I'd leave it up to her parents. If they haven't been taught themselves then they won't pass this this on. It's not your job to teach her. However putting her feet on your furniture in your home is another matter. I'm presuming you didn't have much to do with your stepsons upbringing or else he would know how to behave? Unless he just doesn't agree that it's important.

Doesn’t sound like a peaceful lunch does it. If her dad isn’t bothered I wouldn’t have dreamt of commenting.

We had friends end up staying here for dinner last night and the dad asked his DD to eat her crusts, she’s 6 and she scowled at him so I said something like “ooh we always eat our crusts here, it’s a house rule Betty!” (Not her real name) and she immediately, happily, started chomping them. I couldn’t give a toss about crusts and wouldn’t have noticed what she was eating but he was glad of the back up as it dissolved the brewing tension and even though I see them often she got on with it because she was away from home. He’d do the same for me if one of mine was being a pain but it’s about supporting parenting, not undermining it. If the dad in your situation had told her to eat differently you could have agreed but you embarrassed him unnecessarily and they were guests in your home as you don’t see them often so I doubt they’ll rush back.

I guess you're hoping to see less of them? Because that will be the result of this pushy behaviour. You cannot demand like that of a child you are not even close too. What does your husband think?

I don't see the big deal about leaving the table after you've finished, why should children have to sit there and be bored when they've finished, just because the adults have? I think that is a silly rule really, and makes no logical sense when you actually think about it. I'd rather the kids eat their meal and then run off to watch tv, or read or play rather than just sit at the table for no reason other than we have still to finish, and pout, but in to adults conversations etc. Once you've finished your meal, unless you are in a conversation with people at the table, you should leave the table. Have kids eat their meal, then leave us adults and go and play among themselves. That's what I believe. It would be different if they were adults involved in discussion, but they're kids. Best they eat then get out of the way.

just because the adults haven't*?

Sounds like you are being controlling. What right have you to force your preferences onto other peoples children?

YANBU to expect some basic table manners. You were hardly shocked she used the soup spoon for dessert.

I had a birthday dinner for my nephew (turning 14) and he didn't use his knife and fork once, even for salad with dressing (greek salad) and meat.... ewww.

Not your place at all OP; after the first glare from dad you should’ve stopped any more instruction.
I would understand if the child’s behaviour was very bold but it wasn’t.
Be careful you don’t push them away & stop wondering how she behaves at the other granny’s house, that’s noyb.

I make my children ask before they leave the table. It stops them wandering off with meal half-completed and then returning ten minutes later expecting to eat it. It also means I can make sure they put their plates in the dishwasher.

And damn right they're subservient to me. I'm the adult responsible for them!

I do feel strongly about this, so forgive me if I express it too bluntly.
some attitudes here sound snobbish to me, and narrow-minded.
as someone else pointed out, manners are really to do with consideration for others. children learn this gradually as they grow and from loved/ respected role models. it has nothing to do with how or which cutlery is used. that is a kind of fetish, or shibboleth, ie a way or distinguishing us and them.
be glad the child could eat, was able to eat, and everyone had food to eat, and could enjoy it together.
one cannot digest food properly if one is stressed by criticism. it is the wrong atmosphere. surely you want your guests to feel relaxed enough to enjoy their food, and to make them welcome.
I remember as a child in some few locations being told I was using the wrong knife. why was it wrong? nobody else needed it, and it fitted my hand better. I wasn't using it to threaten anyone or flick gravy at them. I was quietly minding my own business and tying to eat.

similarly, I found/ find it difficult to grip and use a knife in the so-called correct manner. why can't I hold it the easiest way for me.
none of these things are to do with what is moral, yet the indignation of some suggests they are.
these are not universal laws. many cultures don't care a fig about such nonsense, often where the poorest would literally share everything they had with a stranger, and rejoice to do so; because that is an assertion of humanity.
I wonder if this a particularly English thing, to elevate mere custom to the heights of righteousness, while overlooking what really matters. our life on earth is brief. let us try to learn to love and accept ourselves and others, that's all that's needed really.
I doubt and dither much, waste time, am fearful, lazy, muddled, selfish.
but one thing I can confidently state: of all my life's regrets, having held a knife like a pen, and indeed being so outrageous as to continue doing so into adulthood, is not among them.

I don't see the big deal about leaving the table after you've finished, why should children have to sit there and be bored when they've finished, just because the adults have

I don't think that's been suggested, just that children should ask permission, e.g. I'm finished eating, can I leave the table now?

It's not your bag OP.
A roast dinner with your dp and his 8yo DD is hardly formal dining surely.

I think you were being quite unreasonable and rude. It’s not your job to tell off someone else’s child, and to try to enforce lessons that her parents have told you that they personally don’t agree with.

I actually think you had worse manners than the child. A child cutting her food in a way that is easiest for her and sitting comfortably while with her own family, and then leaving the table without asking (does anyone actually ask to leave the table anymore?!?!) - none of those things are rude. But you were quite rude and probably upset her. I’d say if manners are important to you, you maybe need to reconsider your own behavior and question whether you showed good manners towards the little girl and her father.

Her dad verbally asked you not to make an issue, you ignored him and chose to undermine him in front of his own child, not only is that very rude, but it also sends out poor signals to his daughter.

Making your guest feel uncomfortable and conscious of their lack of table manners is bad manners imo.

Letting your step granddaughter know you're available to help is a good compromise. You're then not highlighting her lack of cutlery skills, just your willingness to help if needed.

Also, many people suffer from poor gross & fine motor skills making using cutlery hard. My child has the same issues and prefers to eat finger food for that reason. Please don't judge people for this as they might have a hidden disability like my child has.