table manners

[hondagirl500]

Step son - Mike, and his wife, Jane, are divorced. One child, Belle. (I can't stand all the abbreviations, can't follow...). They don't live particularly close to us, but see Mike's mum Louise (my husbands ex) regularly.

Mike had Belle this weekend, and came to our house. Mike had to run some errands, so left Belle with me for a couple of hours. She is 8. Not a problem, we played games, did crafts. Later yesterday, Mike took Belle to a birthday party, and then back to ours for bed.

Which brings me to today, Sunday. My husband and Mike took Belle to see her great grandmother this morning, whilst I prepped Sunday lunch.
Roast beef, yorkies, veg, roasties….

Belle tried to cut her potatoes, but held the fork like a dagger (made a fist, fork held in it if that makes sense) and the knife like a pen. Obviously it wasn't working very well! I showed her how to hold them correctly. She tried, but went back to her way. Mike told me to leave her, it didn't matter. She was then sitting with her knee up on the chair, against the table - I asked her to sit properly. Again, glares from Mike. She got up as soon as she finished eating, but not having finished her meal. I told her that it was polite to 'ask to leave the table', not just get up. Mike told me 'we don't bother with that'.

So, AIBU to insist on table manners - sit properly, use the cutlery properly? TBH, I can't believe that her mother Jane, and Louise don't seem to enforce these?

This is definitely a case of 'your house, your rules!' Manners ARE important... be it social interaction or at the dining table.

YANBU.

I once went to a work-related dinner, with a couple of colleagues and some high profile clients. One colleague, new to the firm, had the most appalling table manners; talking and eating with their mouth open. They also didn't use their knife at all, but impaled whatever was on their plate and kept it on their fork and took bites out of it. It was hugely embarrassing as we were in an extremely expensive restaurant with really senior clients from a big blue chip firm.

Fortunately my other colleague was also our line manager, so he had the pleasure of that particular feedback session. I don't know what happened because I changed jobs shortly afterwards.

There are times and places where not having great table manners won't make a difference, but Belle is being let down by her parents if they aren't teaching her the basics.

As an adult, I always say "I've finished my meal now. May I leave the table". Oh, no, wait, of course I don't - no adult does. It's not the 18th century.

She's eight. I suspect they have plenty of time before she needs to go to corporate dinners. It's not like table manners takes more than a few mins to learn.

How will they know that if it’s not explained to them? And what if the adults want to stay at the table and chat and drink coffee?

Well you explain it to them ...that it's polite to wait for everyone to finish...but you don't have to make them say "May I please get down?" or similar. You make it attractive...sitting together and chatting etc.

May I please get down?? ....sounds so bloody twee and try-hard.

Oh, if the adults want to stay and drink coffeee/chat in private, you just say "Right...all children into the garden on three!" or similar.

I try to instil good table manners in my own children. They ask to leave the table, we don't have elbows on the table and we eat nicely - or at least we try!

However, one child still cannot hold cutlery properly and she is way older than the op's grandchild. We have tried, and tried. Even gone to an occupational therapist to ask for advice - because it's not just cutlery where there are issues. I wonder if the op's grandchild has had ongoing issues that they're trying to help, but are giving the child a break from the nagging and don't want to cause any anxieties.

Just a thought.

I think table manners are important. And I do think it is perfectly possible to make it “your house, your rules”. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents and they were alway very strict on table manners (much more so than my overworked dad). But they also had oceans of time for chatting, baking, colouring, reading, feeding ducks, etc. I loved going there and did pick up table manners on the way.

“As an adult, I always say "I've finished my meal now. May I leave the table". Oh, no, wait, of course I don't - no adult does. It's not the 18th century.”
So do you just finish eating then get up and wander off?

Actually, awful table manners that have been in place for 20 odd years are not that easy to change.

Not using cutlery properly.
Not holding cutlery correctly.
Not sitting properly.
Making a lot of noise.
Not closing one's mouth.

All of these things are best learnt early so they become instinctive.

To try and unlearn what you have done for many years is harder than you think.

Much easier to do it from when they are 3 by giving them a mini knife and fork straight off, IMO.

Frankly, there is nothing more off putting than sitting across from someone with awful table manners.

It's another life skill as far as I'm concerned.

People most certainly judge those who don't have these skills.

"And it's also easy to say, that was great thanks, just as an adult would"

I would find it so rude if an adult did this!

As an adult, I always say "I've finished my meal now. May I leave the table". Oh, no, wait, of course I don't - no adult does. It's not the 18th century.

But you wouldn't just walk away from the table when you had finished your meal would you? Surely you would wait until everyone else had also finished eating? As an adult you don't need to ask because you know the cues. Children do, because they are still learning to read them.

YANBU OP and perfectly within your rights to teach good table manners in your home.

The fact that 'Mike' says they don't bother with it sounds like lazy parenting. You'll be doing the child a huge favour in the long run by instilling life skills providing you do it in the right way. Poor child, 8 yo is quite old to not know how to use cutlery or sit properly at a table.

Asking to be excused is perhaps taking it to another level but a sign of excellent manners.

“But you wouldn't just walk away from the table when you had finished your meal would you? Surely you would wait until everyone else had also finished eating? ”
This.
And if for whatever reason you wanted/needed to leave before everyone had finished you’d say something like “I’m sorry- does anyone mind if I leave? I’ve got a deadline/a call to make/it’s raining and I need to get the washing in”

I thought the whole reason that children are taught to excuse themselves from the table was that they dont want to (and arent expected to) sit there til everyone else has finished. Surely there arent adults who would just get up and wander off when they're done when eating at another person's house?!

@BarbariansMum Apparently there are!

I hate sitting down for meals with people who nag. It makes everything so deadly miserable and dull. Meals should be enjoyable and interesting, a time for your DC to chat about their day or ask questions, not be made to feel like shit because they don't hold cutlery correctly. MIL is naggy and meals with her are in absolute silence because she doesn't like chatting at the table. Now that they DC are older, they refuse to go. That's her misery coming back to bite her on the arse.

If you set a good example and make mealtimes feel good, you don't need to nag children to do x, y and z; they pick up on your cues and copy your actions. They don't have to have perfect manners from day one; it's a process and if her Dad had already asked you to leave it once, you were rude not to follow his lead and let it go.

My parents were quite formal sometimes at mealtimes, and insisted on the usual (so I thought) "rules": no elbows on the table, sit straight, don't scrape cutlery on the plate, don't chew with your mouth open, cut your food when needed and put your cutlery down (occasionally, not necessarily after every bite), how to make polite conversation, and when and how to excuse yourself leaving the table.

Aditionally my dad explained (senior army officer) how things work at things like regimental dinners, cocktail parties etc etc. And It was all bloody useful (especially the tip about not being allowed to leave the table for any reason during a regimental dinner before the senior person did. (yes, they pee in bottles, lucky bastards)

I really don't have a problem with children asking to leave the table as they get older they stay longer and join the chat anyway. But any person (child or otherwise) lounged on the table chewing away at a chicken breast speared on a fork I'd definitely judge - and if a child I'd definitely mention that's not how we do things at my house.

I don’t understand why you can’t chat and laugh and have a nice time while also using nice table manners. We do!

So many excuses for not teaching children basic manners. It's so repressive and boring to sit up on a chair and not show people the contents of your mouths.

And bullshit to the "if you just set a good example they'll learn table manners by osmosis" brigade. No, most don't, they need to be shown and (gently) reminded. The kids I know who ate like pigs at 8, still eat like pigs at 14. It's less cute now.

I don’t understand why you can’t chat and laugh and have a nice time while also using nice table manners. We do!

Us too.

If my 7 year old ate that meal like that I’d be over the moon. Atm he doesn’t use cutlery at all or eat any food which requires cutlery. My 5 year old also doesn’t use cutlery at all either and is fed by me (fishfingers and beans every single day). So I’d actually probably be embarrassingly over praising them in this case, as would their grandparents.

As for do adults just get up when they’ve finished. Yes. My Dh does as he finds sitting at the table boring. He says it’s rude of me to want him to stay when he doesn’t want to.

@MrsKoala Are there SN involved? If that is the case I think that's something different to what people are generally talking about here.

Does your DH really just say nothing and get up? That sounds pretty rude tbh. Does he not say 'Thanks, I'm finished' nothing really?

HennyPennyHorror What does this 'twee' word even mean? It sounds so stupid, something like a 7 year old girl would say. All the time I've been on here, I still don't know what that word means. Regardless, most adults tend to like to eat their dinner leisurely when they have dinner guests. Talking two 3rds more than they are eating.
Where as the kids probably eat fast to get away and go watch tv or read. It's unfair to make a kid wait for an adult taking an hour+ to eat while talking to other adults at length.