AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

I don't think it's fair to say that the media at the time didn't mention loyalist terrorism. There certainly was coverage on the 9 o'clock news etc of loyalist murders. But for a couple of reasons I don't think people noticed it as much. Firstly because the atrocities that really stood out to people were the bombings and those were mostly carried out by the IRA. And then because the IRA were the name that people were familiar with, I suspect that people who weren't all that interested in what was going on in N Ireland heard 'terrorism' and just connected all NI terrorism with the IRA, even when it was actually loyalists.

ArabellaDoreenFig - Well that tells me everything I need to know. Neutral and balanced my arse.

@isabellerossignol

Whilst I think that loyalist terrorism was reported, it got no where near the coverage it deserved, and was largely ignored as people heard violence and assumed it was the IRA.

The press was biased against the nationalists. The RUC in cohoots with the loyalists.

Remember when Sinn Fein voices were dubbed by actors, lol.

The Guildford 4, Birmingham 6.

OP, I did watch the program and thought it brilliant and unbiased, and loads of footage I'd never seen before.

Also they didn't 'turn a blind eye'. They actively colluded with loyalist paramilitaries to plant bombs in the Republic.

@isabellerossignol

Whilst I think that loyalist terrorism was reported, it got no where near the coverage it deserved, and was largely ignored as people heard violence and assumed it was the IRA.

That's what I said in my post, that people heard about violence and assumed it to be the IRA, even when it wasn't.

obligations

I’m well aware of what the law on legitimate targets in war zones are, thanks fella!

And I’ve repeatedly said that the army should never be above the law, in fact I emphasised it above the bit you quoted. It’s not about being above the law, those documents will be full of identifying information for large numbers of serving personnel, as well as communication procedures etc.

Oh and for the avoidance of doubt-

Yes I am a forces family.

I’ll take your word for it isabella. I know I wasn’t making connections because I understandably didn’t have much idea of what it was about, I was just listening to it iyswim. But as my main childhood memories of news was the fact my father always seemed to have the late night news on in the background when I got hungry enough to come inside, it is quite possible that I either missed it or perhaps ‘loyalist’ didn’t strike me as a distinct organisation.

ArabellaDoreenFig - Well that tells me everything I need to know. Neutral and balanced my arse

Your reaction says far more about you

TrainspottingWelsh that's just my own theory, not a statement of fact!

But from my own memory, a lot of loyalist murders were 'single' murders where some poor unfortunate just got a knock on the door, opened it and got shot. One casualty at a time, every few days. In terms of news reporting, those got a quick report on the news. Whereas when something happened with multiple casualties that was when it made for a long detailed report on the news. All those individual murders added up just the same but as individual events they went by almost unnoticed. Again, that's my own memory of reporting, not an actual detailed analysis of airtime.

Sinn Féin was the main target of the restrictions but they also covered 10 republican and loyalists paramilitary groups including the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA), the Ulster Volunteer force (UVF) and the Ulster Defence Association (UDA). Unlike the Irish ban, the UK version did not operate during elections and permitted the words of those subject to its controls to be spoken by actors.

I wonder how much the other groups were dubbed as well.

It seems to have been brought in after BBC staff walked out for 24 hours when government pressure led to the bosses not showing a film made about the troubles featuring Martin McGuinness and Gregory Campbell from the DUP very much speaking in their own words.

Seems to me like it was a clear attempt to try and stop media coverage of Sinn Fein and the IRA at all - but just lead to the ridiculousness of the voice overs. It obviously didn't cover the DUP and that's why Paisley's voice was heard.

This rather shows the ridiculousness of the voice ban (because it only applied when they were talking in an 'official' capacity as such) -

The use of actors' voices and certain irregularities of the restrictions were highlighted when Peter Taylor made a film about the Maze prison, featuring loyalist and republican prisoners.

The restrictions allowed Taylor to interview prisoners in their personal capacity without revoicing their contributions.

However he had to revoice the section of the film when "the IRA's spokesman for food is complaining about the size of the sausage rolls". This demonstrated the surreal nature of the restrictions.

Your reaction says far more about you

That's a laugh.

I'm not the one saying the army is beyond reproach and that the British govt should continue the cover up of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. Should all murders be brushed under the carpet in order to protect the perpetrator's family? Or just the ones that involve soldiers?

The unionists started the troubles. They purposefully denied catholic’s of their civil rights - no vote,no houses, no jobs. The catholic’s started peaceful civil rights marches which resulted in the ruc and b specials being heavy handed! The unionists treated catholic’s like second class citizens for long enough!

And they still do, what with Arlene foster denying equal rights to members of the lgbt community and Jim Wells spouting there shouldn’t be any gay people on tv !

Its shows a lack of historical knowledge by anyone blaming the English. It goes back a thousand years. The Normans, the Dutch etc..

Also they didn't 'turn a blind eye'. They actively colluded with loyalist paramilitaries to plant bombs in the Republic.

Yep. That’s right - the British security forces colluded and conspired with terrorists to murder 34 innocent civilians and injure a further 300 in Dublin and Monaghan in 1974. Anyone who thinks that those victims don’t deserve justice or who minimises it is an absolute disgrace.

i have repeatedly said the army should not be above the law, I also meant that their behaviour should be perfect when said I they should be above reproach, which i hope is clear from my tone and other posts, where I have said that atrocities were committed on all sides. I have counterpointed your posts Sakura because they read like you were singling out the army and the loyalists as the bad guys.

And maybe look at the bigger picture before making foolish assumptions, the release of classified documents can put thousands of soldiers and their families at risk because they contain information that terrorists (of any group) can use to find personnel and/or their family. It’s a basic safety protocol.

@Willyoujustbequiet Not necessarily. They may have invaded many years ago.
NI managed without much trouble for 40 years, until the civil right protests like pps mentioned voting, housing, unemployment rights or lack of for Catholics.
The power hungry unionist started it.
Then internment, Maggie Thacther, fueled it.
I was listening to DUP tonight on the view, adamant NI is leaving with the UK.
I don't think the Republicans will agree.

Right so just to be clear, Arabella, you think that the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and the murders of 34 people should not be fully investigated? Isn’t that placing the armed forces above the law?

isabelle my mistake. I just assumed you were speaking factually and pointing out my memories were inaccurate. Although I’m still inclined to believe yours over mine because it makes sense I’d be more likely to catch a long detailed report than a brief one.

AgileLass you have made some fairly strange assumptions, no where have I said that there shouldn’t be an investigation- earlier on the release of documents was being discussed and i was saying why they shouldn’t be released.

I have never said there shouldn’t be an investigation, and I have never said the victims don’t deserve justice. And I can respect that although there are hundreds of IRA killings that will never be investigated and their victims will never get justice that isn’t a good enough reason not to hold the Forces to account.

I do think that thousands of army (and police) personnel and their families should not be placed in danger as part of the investigation

The North of Ireland and northern Ireland aren't the same. Donegal is further north than Northern Ireland and it's in the republic

strong assumptions not strange assumptions

I haven't watched the programme but I am from London and lives and worked there during the IRA bombing period so had a very fixed point of view. However, having been on a tour around Kilmainham Jail in Dublin with an extremely knowledgeable and persuasive tour guide I have now seen the other side of the very long story and the British don't come out of it covered in glory, that's for sure.

I also meant that their behaviour should be perfect when said I they should be above reproach

Thanks for clarifying, I think people interpreted it to mean that they are beyond critisicm.

I do think that thousands of army (and police) personnel and their families should not be placed in danger as part of the investigation

I'm not sure I buy this. Who exactly do you think is going to threaten the families of the people concerned? The files don't have to be released to the public in order for an investigation to take place.

How the U.K has treated Ireland in the past has been horrendous.

Ireland was under British rule at the time of the Irish famine, and the British people in charge - took farmland for themselves, exported food out of Ireland, letting one million people starve to death, and making one million people emigrate. This has been called a genocide by the United nations.

Later the U.K took huge amounts of land for themselves , from Irish Landowners in the North, this caused all the following problems: the Irish war of Independence against the UK, the Irish Civil war, Ireland being split into two, and the Irish troubles - the war in Northern Ireland where many more lives of lost.

Really, the level of cruelty has been crazy. Is there any other case in history where a country has destroyed a neighbouring country so much?

I do hate when Irish people blame current U.K people for the violent history though.

I never attacked and invaded anyone. Why should I, or the current U.K people feel guilty for it? We shouldn't. We were not even born at the time people!