AIBU to ask you who started the Troubles in the North of Ireland?

[1FineDane]

If you watch this new BBC documentary, what is your answer?
I know British people think the IRA started the whole shit, but this is a BBC documentary and fairly unbiased.

I hope you watch it to realise what history there is in Northern Ireland.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0008c47/spotlight-spotlight-on-the-troubles-a-secret-history-episode-1

I'm willing to watch it.

For what it's worth, I am English and yes, I do feel an ongoing sense of guilt/discomfort around the things done in the name of my country, whether that is the conduct of the Black & Tans, shooting WW1 deserters or the Amritsar massacre. It is like a sliver of steel shooting into my brain whenever I hear the national anthem, watch Remembrance at the Cenotaph or look at that flag. Pride, for me, is always, always mixed with shame.

I applaud Justin Welby for prostrating himself in front of the Amritsar memorial and think he should go and do the same somewhere equally symbolic for the Troubles.

Sweet Jesus watch the documentary, it not biased, it talks about what happened, it brings up the murders on both sides. It speaks to people from both sides, it talks to soldiers who were there. It shows documentation of events. It doesn't show favour to either side. It tells the facts. For a nation who loves to go on about the ww2, it's amazing how defensive some get about the Troubles in NI. Did it paint Ian paisley in a good light? No but Martin Mcguinness didn't come out looking great either. I found it fascinating how these 2 men from extreme either side eventually worked together in gorverment. That took a hell of a lot of compromise from both men.
7salmon you know you can hide a thread if you dont like it, fair enough of you don't agree with points of view or find it biased after WATCHING the show but what is the point of commenting when you didn't see it.

Sakura7

And

1FineDane

Your single minded discussions aren’t doing you any favours.

There have been some fantastic posts here from people coming from all different backgrounds and angles and it’s mostly a respectful discussion but you two are so single-minded in your agenda it’s simply off-putting.

If you want to see a united Ireland then why not outline why, going round in circles about past atrocities is not helpful. hundreds of innocent civilians were murdered by the IRA, do you think that they should stand trial for those murders ?

A huge part of the GFA was that people on all sides had to compromise and agree to move on from past crimes and atrocities, and I think you are doing a huge disservice to those on all sides who chose to work towards peace

Arabella there was innocent people killed on both sides, the IRA did horrendous things but so did the Uvf and some soldiers. The documentary shows this. Should those who murdered people have stood trial? Of course on both sides but There was a lot of compromises because of the GFA agreement and tobring the fragile peace, some of those compromises were very hard to take on both sides
. As for a United Ireland, you will find the majority in NI and ROI did not want that, they were happy with the status quo. The whole United Ireland has only being revived because of Brexit.

The OP obviously has an agenda, as the title refers to “the North of Ireland”, rather than Northern Ireland and is therefore somewhat goady and unnecessary.

My mother was from NI so we were very aware of the Troubles at the time. There were awful things done by both sides. I think that anyone who was able to forgive the terrorists who were responsible for killing a loved one is a better person than I could ever be. One man who sticks in my mind is Gordon Wilson who spoke so eloquently after his daughter, a nurse, was killed in the Enniskillen bombing. He forgave her killers and the memory of his words still brings tears to my eyes.

I remember that saddlesore and I remember listening to him speak. You're right he spoke so well and his story was heartbreaking. I also heard other terrible stories from Irish living in NI, their stories are horrendous too. The fact remains if we don't remember our past, even the terrible stuff we are destined to repeat it. The documentary while hard to watch
Showed me a time I hope never to see again.

Viola and Saddle -

Sorry, I was trying to say what you both articulated (better than I did!)
I posted earlier about there being fault on all sides, I’m just getting frustrated with the single minded arguments from those 2 posters who don’t want to listen to anyone with a different viewpoint.

buggered if i know who started it but most people i know think BBC are very left wing, unbiased is last thing id call them, may as well ask Corbyn, see what he thinks

Oh come off it Arabella, it's clear from your posts that you're not coming from the neutral perspective that you claim to be. Talking about those poor innocent British soldiers, while failing to recognise the extent of the discrimination and abuse Catholics suffered. And when a poster comes along and says "Catholic individuals" started it, and there will never be a United Ireland, you don't have an issue with that. But when I say that's not true, and that the demographics suggest that a United Ireland will happen, I have an agenda.

It really doesn't affect my life one way or the other if there is a United Ireland by the way. I didn't argue for it. I simply stated that I believe it will happen and Brexit has sped it up.

Would love for you to point out anything I've said that's untrue.

The troubles are not really the past for NI it is very much the present and the future is terrifying.
Trouble is well and truly brewing under the stress of Brexit.
All those suggesting or hoping for a United Ireland are forgetting about the thousands of loyalist UDA UFF who'd rather die than unite, there will be retaliation from the Nationalists no good can come of this mess.
How the heck the DUP ended up in parliament is atrocious.

It's a very emotional topic Arabella, it's not that long ago and it is still hard for a lot of people. Events that happened during the Troubles impacted so many who are still living with it today. That's why I found the documentary so fascinating, it tells the story from different points of view, from a young boy at the time from the Catholic side or a woman from the protestant area. It spoke to soldiers who were barely 18 when they were sent there to officers who were in charge of soldiers. It showed how one incident from one side led to retaliation from the other and the affects that had in the communities of NI.

@tinatsarina - The British army first came over to help the Catholics but but obviously members of the ira didn't like that the army was here so they started acting up. Certain members of the Catholic community stirred things up

Victim blaming at its finest.

I have no fucking agenda. I watched the programme and it was as much of an education for me as maybe anyone else commenting here who didn't live in NI.
I wanted to discuss the programme. No other master agenda. Remember, I'm Irish, we're a bit thick, I doubt I'd have some master plan going on here................
FFS.

Sakura7

Would love for you to point out anything I've said that's untrue

I could ask the same of you.

The difference between us is that I know that when it comes to conflicts nothing is ever as black and white as ‘everyone on my side is right’, and ‘everyone on the other side is wrong’.

I hope that is clear in my posts.

I don't think it's acceptable though for someone to come on here and claim that the 'Catholics' started the whole fucking thing lol. Apart from being untrue it's fucking goady.

In terms of my vested interest here? I have none. I'm Irish. I watched the programme and found it to be uniquely unbiased so far. Irish know as much about NI as English do. We haven't lived there and we're very fucking different. I simply wanted to discuss it with anyone who had watched it.

I don't believe everyone on the "other side" is wrong and I believe the actions of the IRA were horrific. But we are talking about what happened before the IRA. I really don't see how Catholics can be blamed for the troubles starting, considering the appalling abuse they suffered. Of course the small proportion who joined the IRA were partially responsible for keeping them going, as were their loyalist counterparts, and the army.

I answered the question wanted answered, I'd be interested to hear your answer to mine re: the Dublin and Monaghan bombings?

Sakura 7, thanks for having checked. We had our house 'raided' by the British army a few times. Amongst the items taken were books and a rubber bullet (they're very large) and it had been impregnated with metal shards. They were illegal to use on the British mainland but Civil Rights protestors etc were fare to be shot at. My parents were involved in the Civil Rights Movement at the time ie One Man One Vote as many Protestants held several votes and as I said before voting areas were and are are biased against Catholic's, hence on my first attempt to vote I found out it was 20 miles away and I had no way of getting to it.

I believe it started when Pope Adrian IV in 1155 asked King Henry II to invade and govern Ireland and bring Ireland and its church "into line".

On the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and collusion, I think the problem is partly that a lot of people just don't want to believe that collusion happened bec it shakes their belief in law and order etc. If you were brought up in a church going, obey the law no matter what, unionist (not loyalist, just someone who believed they were British) background your only exposure to the police was at check points. Or when you heard on the news that a police officer had been shot. The police were meant to be there to protect us from the people who were planting the bombs.

It was a huge shock to me as an adult to discover that all was not as it seemed. But I think it is undeniable that these things happened. Unfortunately most people I know who had a similar upbringing to me think that tales of collusion and the like are actually conspiracy theories by a biased British media who are intent on getting rid of N Ireland. And I'm not sure that any proof would convince them.

And the reason I mention the church going is because it was one of the things drummed into us at church - that law and order was everything.

Sakura7

In answer to your question:

To give you a bit of context
Do I think that British Army should be above reproach ? Yes.
Is there any excuse for the army to turn a blind eye to a bombing? No.

Should the government should make the classified documents regarding those bombings available?
No. Regardless of the contents it makes service personnel and their families vulnerable.

7salmonswimming is pro-Brexit - well blow me down with a feather! Maybe your ignorant comments stem from a sense of shame that if Brexit happens and a hard border is re-introduced, you will have contributed to that.

No. Regardless of the contents it makes service personnel and their families vulnerable. right - like the innocent and unarmed civlians murdered in Bloody Sunday? Defending the armed forces no matter what is sick. They're not above the law you know - look at the law on legitimate targets in war zones.

whyami the accurate version of how the famine occurred was definitely easily available in the Uk. At a guess I was maybe 7/8 when I read under the hawthorn tree and then went off to find the real history. (Because I was, and still do feel compelled to find the historical facts about anything I come across in fiction).

So if nearly 30yrs ago I could find that information in the fiction section of a rural library there’s no excuse for the secondary curriculum being so utterly wrong several years later.

I’m prepared to be corrected, because I was only young and not a big tv watcher, so I possibly missed it. But as a child (late 80’s/ early 90’s) I certainly don’t remember the news representing the troubles as anything but the Ira catholic terrorists versus the good guys. I certainly don’t remember any mention of there being another side at fault.

Who started the Troubles?

The trouble all started when Ireland was invaded and persecuted by England for centuries.

We were treated like, and described as animals.

After countless breaches of human rights, eventually the people rose up and got organised. That was the start of the “trouble” you might say.