To think relying on working tax credits and housing benefit is a bad idea

[InkedGreen]

My sister has a very decent amount coming in every month - similar to what I have as a professional with 10+ years experience.

However it's all top up earnings and she's on a low paid job two days a week.

She's quite happy to stay on 2 days even though all her children are at school.

Aibu to think she's foolish to rely on these topups and not try to get a better job or increase her hours? If they try to reform benefits she could very quickly be very poor and I'm concerned even if she isn't!

*My ex walked out and left me with 2 little boys and no income. He was abusive. He doesn't give a crap about his kids. He has been promoted and earns a ton and gives us nothing. He's going abroad soon and paying for his new partner to go with him.

Youngest has just turned 3 and started Nursery 2.5 days a week. I have that time to myself at the moment (I spend a lot of it by myself doing all the housework crying) as finding a job around pick ups/drop offs which are 2 miles away ON FOOT (can't afford a car!!)is flipping bloody impossible. It really really honestly hand on heart is impossible. Next year when youngest is in Reception I can start my life, hopefully, if I can deal with all the holidays and still get them to school/pick them up. I hate my ex for what he's done to us.

I would swap my life for a full time job/adult company/kids in full time school right now in a heartbeat because I promise you this is absolutely hell and I feel like scum*

You will get there. It will take time. It sounds like you've been through Hell. Go easy on yourself.

An awful lot of posters also assuming op's sister COULD get a job with more hours/pay. Certainly not true where I live!

We've recently lost ANOTHER major employer (I think we have one left?) and several more shops have closed.

Unemployment is NOT down despite what the tories are trying to tell us. The last time I checked I think there was around 35-40% more people looking for work than there are jobs available (and most of those jobs are part time it's not only full time jobs in these stats)

Then if she is a single parent with no support for childcare outside office hours she won't be able to work evenings, weekends, bank holidays...

"That’s not the employers fault. It’s a choice to work part time." Not if the only jobs that don't expect eve/weekends/bank hol working are part time!

"Even with full time work people need to make choices on affordability ie where they can live, the number of children they can support"

1 circumstances change!

2 "choice" only goes so far! People generally only choose where they live to a point. Based on where they were born/raised, where their support network is, where work is, where they can afford (which can change due to events outside their control - rents can go up enough that it makes money right for people which also means they don't have the spare cash to "just move" - god I hate when mners suggest that! It means finding "spare" at least a months rent, security deposit, removals costs, all the "little" costs of moving that add up...). Why should locals be priced out of their home areas? Jobs - you have to take into account hours, transport etc

But then I'm still pretty sure you're a previously well known benefit bashing poster who name changed but your posting style is VERY familiar!

"Given children are in school for thirty hours, a full time job isn’t going to take away many hours from them anyway." YOU won't go this but perhaps someone else with slightly similar thinking but with more empathy, compassion and a willingness to understand might!

Go check the jobs available in YOUR locale now, how many of them are even "just" office hours? Ie the employee if a single mum could do them and reasonably get childcare? Bear in mind travel times too! (Why isn't there childcare outside office hours? I've been a childminder and nanny and it amazes me this is still the case. If you're a childcare person who COULD do outside office hours I suspect you're missing a trick!) Most job search websites now also show how many applicants have applied for that position, when I was job hunting a few years ago (dd and I both were at same time as it happened) the majority were showing HUNDREDS of applicants per position!

It IS a trap especially with the way UC works because there IS NOT a smooth and sensible transition from benefits to wages - there used to be!!

The current situation makes benefits claimants LESS eager to change their circumstances as there's no assurance that they won't end up MUCH WORSE off.

"Its less about money and more about ideology" of course it is!

A lot of people on here don't like the choice that your sister made to be a stay at home mum.

I made the same choice to stay at home and for 25 years my home was the local point where kids and adults all hung out in the village.

Because I was at home I was able to support my friends with childcare if they had emergencies and sick chicks.

Every working mum needs people like me to catch them when they fall.

Women should work together to help each other out ....

"It’s not ideology....just that most people believe if you can work, you should and support yourself"

How do you equate that then with the FACT that even full time at nmw is in many parts of the U.K. NOT Enough for even a single adult with no dependents to live on?

It's £1262 pcm take home pay if you're over 25.

Houseshares in the more expensive parts of the U.K. Can be £400pcm

Tv licence £12.37
Groceries £200
Phones £30
Phone ins £12
Transport £400
Clothes & shoes £100
Haircuts £75
Save for emergencies (5% ish) £65
Save for birthdays/Christmas £25

Total £1319.37! So getting into debt by about £60 each month!

And that's no socialising, no holidays so basically work and home and that's it! Great!

"Hopefully certain people on this thread have the same vitriol for the NRPs that don't bother contributing to their child's upbringing" I wouldn't hold your breath!

However I also feel that some married women are trapped as stay at home mums. I know some where they are unable to find work after bringing up the kids, DH earns all the money and they are in an unhappy marriage but stay as they have no way to support themselves.
Women get shafted. All ways.

Surely OPs sister does have a caring responsibility, one that she doesn’t have the luxery of sharing with a partner so it’s better for her to work part time.

It’s all very well saying people should take more responsibility for their kids, maybe benefits should be reduced and the children's father forced to pay. Circumstances change and the OP can hardly hand her kids back.

Totally morally wrong. She only works 2 days? She should get another pt job or increase her hours. It’s not fair to people who work ft and claim no benefits.

Tbh I’m surprised that she can claim so much in benefits. Surely must deter people from working? Some people must think ‘why work when I can get money for free?’ 🙄

I was full time and then went part- time for 3 days when I had DS. He's just started school so I could go back full time and pay for breakfast and after school clubs but in my job they won't let me go back full time - NHS = additional money - no funding. I was warned that this could happen before I went part-time though.

Graphista I thought that about the posting style. Seems very similar to a poster who I've seen name changing who constantly bashes anyone on benefits, working part time, SAHPs. Basically anyone who doesn't work full time and has never claimed a penny of help.

My sister is in a similar situation, being reliant on benefits (working tax credits and child tax credits) and working the required minimum weekly hours.
She is a single mother but her son turns 16 next year and she has only a few years left where she can rely on top ups. That’s if he chooses to remain in full time education.
Where I see the system as failing is not just the wrong moral choices it forces people to make and encouraging ‘calculated minimum effort’.
For me it worries me to see my sister with no developed work ethic, sleeping until late hours every morning and spending her free time on her hobbies and socialising with her friends.
It scares me when I think that she will be required to develop a 40hr / week habit, she is completely de-skilled and frankly lazy.
Her pension contribution is close to nothing.

So yes these people get a few years (sometimes more than a few) of this ‘comfortable’ lifestyle but please remember that they usually have decades of life ahead of them with no decent income potential.
It’s a disaster.

I see so many women making wrong choices every day and thinking short term.
My husbands ex wife is highly educated but has chosen the benefit route (guess how many hours per week she works) , because her salary combined with benefits and a very generous maintenance ( which by the way doesn’t affect the benefits...) gives her a monthly income similar to a person working full time earning a good salary. There is no childcare issue because her job would allow her to work when free childcare is available. While I understand she is entitled to make this choice I cannot understand the logic applied where a person knows the top ups are going to stop literally within a few years.
I would be petrified and it is the short- sightedness that is my issue more than the moral ground.

So you could be writing about me OP! Obviously I’m not your sister but I am in a similar situation. I’m a single parent working 2 days (16 hours) on a wage that some people get for full time. I am a teacher and when I got the job I was only offered 2 days. It fell at the same time I qualified for tax credits as my ex had just left around the same time. My original tax credit top up was the same as my wage meaning it wasn’t worth me working any more days at all if I was to be offered them. My tax credits have gradually reduced as they were based on me being unemployed all of the previous tax year then reduced again as I was then employed for part of the next tax year and then reduced again as it took into account a full tax year being employed by my third year being in the job. So I took a gradual hit for a while. Now, when I move up the pay scale/get a cost of living rise it makes no difference to me as it reduced my tax credits further. So I’ve been on the same wage for 5 years now. Anyway, I worked out that if I was to get another day at work I’d be no better off as I would loose that same amount in tax credits so working another for no extra money. It would incur extra travel and child care and job stress. Adding a 4th day would just about break me even money wise after losing all tax credits and paying out child care and travel. So if only benefit from full time. Not an option at my current job and have had no luck applying elsewhere. But I don’t really want full time whilst my children are at primary school. Full time teaching would mean a lot of work being brought home on weekends, the travel is stressful and the days are long for me and the kids - they would be in school 7:30-5:30 which are maximum hours their school offers.

I’m not foolish. I couldn’t survive without my tax credits. I’ve a mortgage and bills that wouldn’t be covered if I didn’t get them. I earn the same as the full time teaching assistants at my school but they don’t put in the same additional hours as a full time teacher. I do keep looking at other jobs but on my pay scale moving schools isn’t that easy and the current situation is that I could take on a full time job and be paid lower down the scale than I am now so wouldn’t really be better off.

I keep thinking about going full time when my kids are at high school but then I know people who have had to go part time at this stage as well to support their kids more.

Universal credit which I'm on requires you to work . I've been on it just over a year because oh has a health condition and lost his job due to this since last May but working all that time up until now. Part time but still (but full time term time). I was doing all I could. I stayed in that job because I was scared I'd not get another one as I've got adhd. But it is nice to be able to pick up your kids and be there fir them. Else why do you bother having them? They need you. Childcare costs sometimes eat up all your money anyway at £30 plus per day...

It’s all very well saying people should take more responsibility for their kids, maybe benefits should be reduced and the children's father forced to pay.

This is something I'd support - my wages would support me and to a certain degree, DD. The shortfall is currently being made up by TC - I agree that it shouldn't be, but it's not me that's fallen short of my responsibilities, it's him. Not recieving TC means spiralling debts, I can just manage with no big outlays to kick me up the arse suddenly like a washing machine or freezer packing up. And by spiralling debts I mean things like council tax and utilities, not catalogues and credit cards. I live in a fairly low rent area and lowest CT band.
And there's thousands of women like me, with more than one child I can see why it's a necessity to work part time - bloody hell it was hard enough trying to be two parents to one child, never mind more. It's not the people left in this situation that are making the choices, it's the ones who walk away and leave their responsibility behind with no redress at all.
It's not the employee that decides the pay they earn, or the hours worked for the majority, it's the employer.
It's not the bill payer who decides the rate of council tax, or the price of gas per unit, It's the company.
One of two things would ensure I don't need TC - father coughing up or a living wage. In the absence of either my other 'choice' is debt and unpaid bills. If you think choosing that is moral and better you need to give your head a wobble.

I think this warrants posting again. Kevin Bridges on working for self esteem.

I agree with pp. Do you have the same contempt for fathers who bugger off.
Perhaps if they were hounded and persecuted as much as single mums are things would be a lot easier

t's not the employee that decides the pay they earn, or the hours worked for the majority, it's the employer.
It's not the bill payer who decides the rate of council tax, or the price of gas per unit, It's the company

Exactly hence my posts upthread

Oh I think I’ve saw that Helena. Is that the one where he says something along the lines of
They send you to work for free in Poundland to boost your self esteem where everything is worth a pound expect you.

Yep Thats the one.

Yep! Let’s look at this...

Hopefully certain people on this thread have the same vitriol for the NRPs that don't bother contributing to their child's upbringing, either financially or with childcare, which is often why single parents end up in these situations

and then this

My husbands ex wife is highly educated but has chosen the benefit route (guess how many hours per week she works) , because her salary combined with benefits and a very generous maintenance ( which by the way doesn’t affect the benefits...) gives her a monthly income similar to a person working full time earning a good salary

You can’t win as a single parent. You don’t receive maintenance, your fault you married such a loser. Man gets off Scott free.

You did marry someone prepared to pay maintenance, and his new partner, your family, society generally will pick over your finances, decide what it is you need to live on and therefore when your income is ‘good’ and when maintenance is ‘generous’. And then have the audacity to say ‘and you still get benefits’ which is your fault, rather than understand the historical background to the decision to not make maintenance count and be glad that it means at least some children are spared living in absolute poverty most of the time. And the NRP is still some kind of hero for paying maintenance and the single ex is still just benefit scum.

Somreally, it’s no wonder that when we are judged for just breathing, we make decisions that work for us because fuck it, you’ll all find fault with it anyway.

You can’t win as a single parent.

Exactly. My theory is it's a throwback to the days when women (not the men for getting them that way) were shamed for being pregnant outside of marriage. Times have changed in some ways, it's far easier socially for a man to up and leave and forget his family exist. I think that stigma is present still if only subconsciously, because people will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to turn the blame onto the one being left to pick up the slack, no matter what the circumstances are.

You can’t win as a single parent

This is so true. The number of times I've been told I should be eternally grateful that my ex who earns 3 times what I do pays the huge sum of £50 a week (when he remembers) for his 3 children. His mum was horrified when I dare suggest he helped with school shoes ect and asked me what I was wasting the money he sends me on.

If it wasn't for tax credits topping up my full time wage my children would be in extreme poverty but that would obviously be my fault not his as he's a fucking Saint.

There is a limited pot for benefits so if people have good health and the ability to get a job and taking less benefits then they should do so in order to allow the benefits to be given to those who really do need them such as the disabled who would probably love to be fit enough to go out to work, the elderly who cannot manage to work full time hours, carers who have to look after a person who cannot be left alone, single parents with under 5's. When single parents youngest child reaches secondary school age no reason why they cannot work a few more hours providing good health similarly if the person a carer looks after dies then they should seek to get into employment. We should prioritise the most vulnerable first. Your sister is being selfish expecting tax payers to pay for her when she is capable of taking care of herself.