To think relying on working tax credits and housing benefit is a bad idea

[InkedGreen]

My sister has a very decent amount coming in every month - similar to what I have as a professional with 10+ years experience.

However it's all top up earnings and she's on a low paid job two days a week.

She's quite happy to stay on 2 days even though all her children are at school.

Aibu to think she's foolish to rely on these topups and not try to get a better job or increase her hours? If they try to reform benefits she could very quickly be very poor and I'm concerned even if she isn't!

[AutumnColours9]

I agree boobindoop.

[Ylvamoon]

No you should not rely on benefits ... they should not be seen as an alternative income "option" to work. They should be there as a way of support for people who fall in hard times!

BUT

Many single parents don't have a choice. It's difficult to juggle low wages with high living costs ... never mind child care. The job market isn't great either, lots of skill/ experience for min wage! How degrading!
Maybe Brexit and the forthcoming recession will sort the wage side of things in 10+ years....

[mindproject]

As a single parent I should have a lot more money when DD is grown up. I don't claim benefits or get any maintenance now, I work part-time. DD is a teenager now, but when she's a young adult I'll work full-time again, or 2 jobs. By then I'll also be able to work all kinds of hours - overtime, evenings, nights, weekends and I won't have to just stick with my crappy low-paid office job. I'll also have the time and money to retrain I if want to and earn even more. I also won't have to pay for everything DD needs.

[Graphista]

LittleMiss what really should be happening is employers paying an actual living wage!

This govt won't do that though because large conglomerates are their major sponsors!

[littlemissmuffins]

Full Time childcare for 2 children is A LOT , A LOT more than 85% of £1108 a month!! Even if one or both DCS are in school, what about then 13 weeks a year of school holidays??

Imagine trying to pay the extra hundreds and hundreds out of your meagre wages??

If they want low paid parents working more hours, the support for childcare has to be realistic and reflect the true cost of childcare.

[littlemissmuffins]

YANBU to think that she should - for her own benefit - ie when the DC leave education and she will have to support herself.

YABU any of the posters with the angle that parents working on low paid min wage jobs SAVE the government any money at all.
This is because the amounts govt have to pay out for childcare costs because childcare is more than the people's whole wage, eats up any savings that may be made.
Poor people are also being attacked from this angle too though, because you can only claim max in monthly childcare costs of £646 for one child, and £1108 for 2 OR MORE children. If a single mum works more than part time hours, topping up these stupidly low support amounts herself from meagre wages, would cripple them financially, perhaps even render the family homeless. Think about it and do the maths.

I don't know the answer. It would save the government money I think if 9am-2pm jobs were fenced and given to low income parents only. Or more jobs with these hours were created. Win Win for everyone except childminders. Then when the children are say early secondary school age, the parents can then be made to go into full time work.

I did this, but off my own back. Luckily for me when the brutal and imo evil cuts started to come into force, my DC were that bit older and I went from pt to nearly ft. It scares the shit out of me relying on such an inept, mistake ridden and cruel system, and I want to be able to provide for myself later on.

[AutumnColours9]

I don't have a problem with it. Good to have the chance to spend time with DC. Time goes too fast. Who says 40 hours is the right number anyway? It is a construction. We should have been working 3 day weeks by now surely. Not sure how it is progress to need both parents in fulltime work.

[greenta]

It's not necessarily the case that single mums will end up worse off once the dc have grown up. My neighbour remarried when her dc was in his late teens, the new husband seems to be on a high income so they live comfortably, and while the dc was younger she worked 2 days a week and apparently paid most of her wages into a pension to max out her tax credits . She tells me she has a pretty decent pension pot.

It does seem to be the norm here for remarriages to happen when the dc are older, so single mums aren't exactly living in destitution when the tax credits stop (the tax credits usually stopped anyway due to a higher joint income, and nowadays of course they would stop anyway due to a change of circumstances which would switch them to universal credit.

[Graphista]

Just checked on mse take home pay calculator and actually even I underestimated because bearing in mind the gross v take home pay aspect the theoretical single mother would need to be on around £35,000 gross to have enough to live on

And not "fancy" living - no nights or days out unless free, no holidays or anything just basic living costs.

That equates to £16 an hour approx - pretty much double the current nmw for over 25's

[Graphista]

3/3
"Would you not work unless a job paid more than 25k?" How much are your household outgoings? We're talking here about not wanting people claiming ANY benefits - so the wage NEEDS to cover ALL living costs and as we're talking about a single mum that likely includes childcare costs too! I live pretty frugally in social housing in a deprived area in Scotland so costs are pretty cheap for most things.

My costs are (roughly - my spreadsheet is far more detailed, to the penny! But A Outing and B approximates are easier to quickly get head around

Rent 380
Council tax 75 (if I weren't on benefits)
Gas/electric 180 (some things mean it's expensive to be poor I'm on a bloody meter)
Web 25 (no longer a luxury essential for managing life Admin and children's educational requirements)
Tv licence 12.37
Groceries 400 (and I only eat one meal a day - that's everything food, cleaning products, toiletries for dd and I. I'm housebound due to health issues so online deliveries. Out in sticks so not everyone delivers. Dd has a disability and works shifts so she can't do this)
Phones 11 (sim only - but again essential)
Clothes & shoes 20 (and not every month either can go several months not buying anything that's an average)
Transport (when not housebound, even if I base on local bus prices - I don't personally cope with public transport but I know the prices) 40 (£10 "season ticket" for a week Would mean doing more than 2 return journeys a week into town makes this cheapest option)

Thats £1143.37 or £13,720.44 pa

BEFORE childcare!

Average cost of full time childcare per week in Scotland with a childminder - £200 a week per child so £10,400 a year!

So...£24,120.44 which is pretty much £25k - take home pay mind so actually the theoretical single mother here needing to work and earn enough to run a (pretty cheap!) household and NOT claim a penny in benefits.

ZERO spare money there and she couldn't afford to have time off sick either for her or her child.

[Graphista]

2/3

"I am not saying you can get a well paid job, but in my book any job, no matter how humble is better than no job at all."

I've done this kind of work (picking, general farm work) I first earned money as a babysitter, then I started aged 14 as a waitress in a 'spoons type place £1.50 an hour.

I've also worked in factories, workshops, retail (checkout & shelf fillling), shipyards, fishing ports, food packaging... All sorts. I've never been "workshy" or snobbish about what job I do - and I've 2 degrees! And yes some of those jobs I've done after becoming a graduate, because as you say, needs must at times.

That's partly how I came to do the childminding, I'd just had dd and we (ex was also army) were living in the arse end of nowhere basically! And we needed more income and at that point I couldn't drive (had licence but meds prohibited). As I say took just under a year to get set up, and I couldn't have done it if we didn't also have exs income AND some savings of mine from the job I was doing before I had dd to live on in the meantime and use for courses and other set up costs.

When ex and I split just over 2 years later I'd decided a few months earlier to stop because of the way things were going as I didn't want to drop "my parents" in it and leave them in the lurch if/when we split and I lost my home (army quarter).

So when we split I was a sahm again.

Ex dropped me right in it financially/practically when we split and I had to frantically scramble around and within a month find:

A home (with no money, no support network, no "connections to the area" meaning council had to house me)
A job
Childcare for dd

Which I was VERY lucky to do! It was a very basic bookkeeping job nmw but it was standard office hours (so childcare friendly), in centre of town so easy to get to, and I VERY LUCKILY at this point had the qualifications/experience to do the job - not everyone would.

[Graphista]

Ooookkkk

Let's take each of your points in turn caringcarer:

1/3
"I suppose it varies as to where you live. I am on Midlands and there are loads of jobs advertised here." This is starting to be VERY similar to a conversation I had with my dad a few years back - a man who hasn't been a job hunter since the 60's! When he was still young, physically fit and the economy was doing really well such that he left school aged 14 and quite literally walked into a job from school! He left school at 3pm Ish, stopped in at the docks on the way home and was told to start 8am the following Monday! I'm not sure the probably 1 minute conversation could even be called an interview! (The boss asked what school he was from, confirming he was Catholic and that was enough for him!)

My sister and I (single mums) were both jobhunting and feeling pretty low at getting nowhere fast!

Dad (retired from army and on a nice pension) goes "what you moaning about I see loads of jobs advertised in the local paper every week!" Not one for using Internet either! So...I very patiently went through with him ALL the jobs advertised in our locale that day not only in the paper but on the websites - I say our locale both sister and I were willing to travel to nearest city which is just over an hour away by train, neither of us had a car as couldn't afford. All but 2 were unsuitable for either sister or I because:

Impossible hours due to childcare (weekends, evenings, bank holidays and overtime expected)

Locations only reachable by car or IF by public transport the public transport didn't operate at times where we could get there in time or be able to get home!

MINIMUM requirements in terms of qualifications/experience neither of us had and couldn't get (cuts to college courses, can't get a role to get the experience until you HAVE the experience catch 22 setup!)

Temp contracts only (LOADS of these where we are, certain local companies take on the SAME employees repeatedly but only on temp contracts, don't renew their contracts at point they'd legally have to make them permanent/give them rights and then re-employ them after a long enough break to dodge legal ramifications. Fine if you don't need a wage to run a household - eg students, people with a partner/spouse in a more stable better paid job BUT for people who if not working are reliant on benefits it ROYALLY messes with your income BECAUSE the dwp are the MOST CRAP administration you will EVER come across! In theory the system SHOULD cope with workers having fluctuating contracts the reality is it can easily take up to a YEAR for a change in circumstances of this kind to be properly organised! Often there's issues with "overpayments", double payments, missed payments, evidence paperwork going missing... You get the idea)

And THEN you ALSO have to consider that while there may APPEAR to be a lot of jobs BUT there's MORE people jobhunting than there are vacancies.

For the first time in almost 10 years we recently had a new employer come into our area (they're actually moving from another area because they can pay much lower wages here) 1000 new vacancies - great! Filled within 2 days! Before they even NEEDED to put an ad on a website, the mere fact of them opening a branch here being reported in local paper was enough for them to be deluged with applications. Over 5000! (Do the math as they say)

"Even people with no skills at all can get a job with an agency and do picking work as it is a distribution hub." Even unskilled work like this has limitations

Physical ability
What hours? On good public transport routes? Permanent contracts? (Doubtful as agency)

[HelenaDove]

Does that picking work involve living on site because for the 15 millionth time social housing tenants cant do that,

They would lose their tenancy


And there are some posters not many miles from this thread who wouldnt hesitate to report a tenant who hadnt been back to a flat for ages. WITHOUT checking the facts first.

[HelenaDove]

"job, no matter how humble is better than no job at all"


Yes my DM said this in the past I suspect she would backtrack pretty quick if she ever found out my old night job which she thinks was catologue work was actually a sex chatline office.

Is that job really better than no job at all if it leads to you losing your home and living in a shipping container. Because pride wont pay the bills Neither will self esteem ...................oh we are back to Kevin Bridges again.

[caringcarer]

@graphista I suppose it varies as to where you live. I am on Midlands and there are loads of jobs advertised here. Even people with no skills at all can get a job with an agency and do picking work as it is a distribution hub. I am not saying you can get a well paid job, but in my book any job, no matter how humble is better than no job at all. Would you not work unless a job paid more than 25k? I would rather have cleaned toilets than have no job. I do not think child minding is an easy job, but it is a shortage area and can be done from home.

[Graphista]

"why not become a child minder and look after another child allowing someone else to work and earning yourself some money at the same time. There are nowhere near enough child minders in UK." ALWAYS some bright spark comes up with "just be a childminder"

I've BEEN a childminder!

1 not everyone wants to be or is suitable to be a childminder

2 it is NOT an "easy" job to do. There are (rightly when the care of young children is involved) MASSES of rules and regulations that govern setting up as a childminder -

The size, layout and standard of your property has to meet certain regulations, your landlord or mortgage lender has to provide written agreement for a business to be run out of that property

Child proofing has to be done to quite a high standard that the vast majority of people don't do as a matter of course

Equipment and supplies have to be provided per certain regulations

The person providing the service AND anyone else in the household likely to be in contact with the children have to be thoroughly background checked at the potential childminders expense (before any guarantee of work)

They also have to undergo training and become certified in:

food hygiene & safety

general health and safety

paediatric first aid

Early years development and education

it's also strongly recommended (some of this I think should also be mandatory) that they undergo advanced training in child protection, bookkeeping (inc tax & NI regs)

They have to be registered with the appropriate authorities (varies depending which country in uk you're in) - there's normally an annual fee for this and certain conditions must be met eg

Public liability insurance

Suitable car & home insurance

Keeping up knowledge on early years education.

They are am required to not only provide a safe environment for their charges but also provide a programme of suitable education depending on age of charges.

From memory (and I did it when it was LESS regulated) it takes around a year to get everything organised and complete all the required courses and from a quick Google to update my knowledge looks now to cost around £2-2.5k in BASIC set up costs!

The average salary for a childminder though is still under £25k!

So yea! Great - easy, cheap & profitable idea - not!!

There's a reason there's a shortage of childminders and why most of them are NOT single parents!

"Becoming a childminder is not a matter of drawing up a little ad, colouring it with your crayons and putting it in the newsagents' window." I'd laugh except you're probably not far wrong in what some think of how easy it is to do!!

[Graphista]

Caringcarer - that's all well and good but I think you'll find there's actually few who disagree! Most of us WANT to work, be productive and be stimulated and have a job to be proud of...

...but it's pointless taking your stance - when there's NO JOBS! And if you look at the voting records of tory MPs ESPECIALLY those who vote AGAINST good welfare benefits they ALSO vote AGAINST:

Measures to CREATE jobs
Measures to improve availability of childcare
Measures to raise wages (so people can AFFORD to work - the best way to "make work pay better than being on benefits, especially when benefits is supposed to be the minimum people need to live on, is for wages to be enough to live on INCLUDING the costs of working - transport, childcare etc)
Measures to reduce the costs of housing in areas where there ARE jobs (far too many mps are ALSO landlords and/or property developers - of all colours - should be banned! It's a conflict of interests!)
Measures to improve transport links to job hubs

[Graphista]

Waxonwaxoff - yes I think we're thinking of the same poster. And when they become known for it name change and basically pretend not to be them.

"You can’t win as a single parent." Correction - you can't win as a single MOTHER.

I know a few men who were/are resident single parents and they didn't/don't get the same criticism at all! They are lauded as "Heroes" and seen as having sacrificed much for their kids and "doing a great job"

[Nicklebox]

Benefits don't go on forever even is the system doesn't change tax credits will be reduced once the children reach a certain age. Your DS may find her income drastically reduced in the future, and her children may still be living at home.

[userxx]

misplaced jealousy? I dont think so. Why would anyone be jealous. I have a family member who claims everything she can get, her kids are well past the age that she needs to be at home. She is healthy and has the capability to work and earn decent money, she is in my opinion bone idle and work shy.

[FelicisNox]

As someone who's been in the system with 2 working adults on low wages your question has no easy answer.

It's too complex and is rarely about morality.

You have the main issue that most households require 2 incomes and it's often not enough.
Child care to factor in.
Commutes depending on area.
Jobs available depending on area.
Health issues.
The fact we don't pay enough tax to get proper free healthcare, social care of free childcare.

Benefits have been slashed and slashed so despite what the daily mail will have you believe, it's not the lottery win some of you seem to think.. it's actually not very much but those of us on not very much know how to make it stretch.

It's also a mixed bag that is usually family specific: it's her life, let her live it as she sees fit. She's an adult and I dare say she's not interested in your opinion.

Threads like this are usually the result of misplaced jealousy. Mind your own business. You will be happier for it.

[angstridden2]

According to gov.uk website you need a minimum of 10 years to get a proportion of the state pension and 35 years contributions to get the full pension so presumably what you do now will make a difference when you eventually retire....not sure I would want to rely on just a state pension now though.i believe there are exemptions to take account and f some years limited work while caring for small children /caring responsibilities.

[HelenaDove]

I thought the NI being paid now was supporting todays pensioners, Make your minds up MN.

[ReanimatedSGB]

Ah yes, 'become a childminder'. That's on a level with 'Well, care agencies are always looking for staff.'
Becoming a childminder is not a matter of drawing up a little ad, colouring it with your crayons and putting it in the newsagents' window. You have to train and qualify, and your house (and your background) will have to be inspected to ensure it's suitable. A lot of very low-income single mums are likely to be living in rented properties where they are either not allowed to run a business from where they live, or the property is not in good enough repair to pass safety checks.

It's not unlike the suggestion you sometimes see that people on benefits should be forced to take up care work in order to keep getting their benefits. Yeah, great idea - wouldn't you just love the idea of your desperately ill friend or elderly, bedbound relative being looked after by someone with no skills or aptitude for the work, who is bitterly resentful of having to do it or starve? Wanting people to be cared for by well-paid, well-respected individuals who have chosen the line of work because it suits them, well, what communist nonsense is that?