To think freedom of movement, as it is, actually works well?

[KennDodd]

Yanbu - works well.
Yabu - does not work well

YANBU

Don't really know why people have such a problem with it. They can come here, we can go there, it expands all of our opportunities.

Freedom of movement is awesome.

They can come here, we can go there,

How many people from the UK going over to work in Bulgaria for the their full time minimum wage of £255 a month? Not much of an opportunity from this side of the fence really.

Prediction - 48/52. Either way. Plus ca change...

How many people from the UK going over to work in Bulgaria for the their full time minimum wage of £255 a month?

Perhaps not many, fair point. On the other hand, if you count all the British living in other EU countries I'm guessing it would balance out pretty nicely with the number of EU citizens in the UK.

I would like to see more investment to make all EU countries equal - better pay/standards of living in every country.
As it stands it isn’t equal and it’s silly to pretend otherwise.

As it stands it isn’t equal and it’s silly to pretend otherwise.

I agree with this. It's one of several issue with the Eurozone (not the same thing as the EU). The insane caper that is Brexit has done a lot to destroy any chance of a nuanced discussion about the Euro

I only voted YABU because freedom of movement as it is is sadly unsustainable for the size of the U.K. and a contributor to the housing crisis and the pressures on infrastructure such as NHS, transportation, and education. In other words...people were migrating too fast for basic infrastructure and housing to keep up with demand.

However, freedom of movement as required by the EU is reasonable if the U.K. had implemented allowable restrictions such that the influx/outflux were more balanced meaning that infrastructure could scaled up to meet demand.

FoM perfectly fine - for those coming here who have the skills we need. If it means Eastern Europeans (who it is predominantly) who come to commit various crimes and cost us money to keep in prison - not fine.

Dutch
The numbers certainly do not "balance out"!!
Currently around 1.3million brits in EU countries, but well over 3 million E U citizens here.

Try www.fullfact.org

As long as they pay more tax/NI than they get in benefits then it is all great. The problem is when they are on minimum wage and get more in benefits than they actually contribute.

If it means Eastern Europeans (who it is predominantly) who come to commit various crimes

EU citizens aren't subject to immigration controls so if even the stats office has to guess at the number of Eastern European residents in the UK it's astonishing that you know the 'predominant' groups.

EU citizens aren't subject to immigration controls

Yes they are.

The numbers certainly do not "balance out"!!
Currently around 1.3million brits in EU countries, but well over 3 million E U citizens here.

The thing is we truly don't know the real numbers. That's how freedom of movement works - if a local isn't tracked (the way they are in the Netherlands for example but are not in England) then a non-British EU citizen is also not tracked.

The numbers we are given are, at best, a guess based on whatever that analyst believes to be the best data available.

On the other hand, if you count all the British living in other EU countries I'm guessing it would balance out pretty nicely with the number of EU citizens in the UK.

I'd wager a lot of Brits living in EU countries, will be either retiree's, studying, or working in skilled/highly skilled jobs, there'll not be many people upping sticks from the UK to work minimum wage jobs with a potential language barrier, whereas, a lot of EU countries either teach English as a second language to a high standard, and their media is bombarded with English speaking entertainment; so moving from an Eastern European country to earn at least 2 times, soemtimes 3 times your currently monthly wage becomes a better prospect (yes I know about cost of living differences as well).

It's not equal, and the vilifying of anyone trying to speak out about it as racist, is why we're in this mess right now, the UK government had the ability to monitor and police freedom of movement, but chose not to, there are other EU members who do actually police it.

I’m a strong remainer but I am not a fan of FOM. Firstly, it doesn’t balance out as a pp has explained. Secondly, I don’t see why a Pakistani doctor or an American maths teacher (true examples known to me) has to jump through paperwork hoops to be here but a Romanian or a German with no qualifications is permitted without question. I’d prefer to control our admissions on the basis of skills that are required, not on the basis of where someone was born.

I’d prefer to control our admissions on the basis of skills that are required, not on the basis of where someone was born.

Which we have - if we bothered to enforce it.

You're very ignorant @SilverySurfer, with little grasp of facts. There are less EU8 migrants in the UK than there are EU15 migrants, and of the EU8 migrants, approximately 2000 have been in custody.

Where do you get your "facts" from?

(* fewer)

As long as they pay more tax/NI than they get in benefits then it is all great. The problem is when they are on minimum wage and get more in benefits than they actually contribute

That's a problem with British people too, if you choose to see it as a problem at all. I don't see how it can be ok for British people but not other Europeans. People are people.

I think the idea is good, but I don't think it works in reality very well.

Joining the EU was supposed to benefit poorer countries like Romania and Bulgaria by enabling them to attract inward investment into their countries. IE if a big company wanted to build a factory they would be encouraged by Brussels to go Bulgaria, they would have the same guarantees as if they were setting up in Germany, but with a much cheaper workforce. A huge amount of money was paid in grants to move factories and other production facilities from this country to East Europe, Cadbury's was one business that did this.

What has happened is that these countries are losing too many of their most talented and enterprising workforce, who are all coming west for better wages. Bulgaria loses something like 80% of its newly trained doctors as soon as they qualify. It is affecting their ability grow their own economy and is just not sustainable long term.

Many of the Eastern European workers who come here work in appalling conditions, and are being really badly exploited. A friend of mine has been working with people who have been treated as virtual slaves, it is horrible to think of it happening in a so called civilised country - and no one really cares.

There are many other similar stories which make me say that no, in practice it does not work very well at all.

EU citizens aren't subject to immigration controls

Yes they are.

Maybe we should make sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about scanning your passport at the airport, is that what you mean?

EU citizens aren't subject to immigration controls

They are subject to border control (which for EEA and Swiss citizens is merely an identity/nationality check), but they are not subject to immigration control (which would mean having to get permission to visit, study, work and live here). A Border Force officer cannot deny an EEA or Swiss citizen entry into the UK unless they believe that they pose a threat to the UK, although the UK could deport people who are a burden on the welfare system.

I am not opposed to this, by the way.

FoM perfectly fine - for those coming here who have the skills we need. If it means Eastern Europeans (who it is predominantly) who come to commit various crimes and cost us money to keep in prison - not fine.

You need to change your social circle or stop reading the mail. The Eastern Europeans I know work at teachers,TA's, Accountants, PA's, nurses,doctors,electrician, construction etc. I've yet to meet one that has been to prison.