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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think freedom of movement, as it is, actually works well?

89 replies

KennDodd · 10/09/2019 11:27

Yanbu - works well.
Yabu - does not work well

OP posts:
StockTakeFucks · 10/09/2019 19:06

Thing is our finest go to Europe and we get car washers and spud pickers in return

Nice Smile

Dutch1e · 10/09/2019 19:07

But is that

a) an EU problem
b) a UK problem ?

A UK problem. There's no central database of residents like there is here in the Netherlands, for example. When I lived in England it became painfully clear how easy it is to slip under the radar, even if that wasn't my goal.

StockTakeFucks · 10/09/2019 19:12

Where I live now I've been exposed to many issues. I've seen gangs of workers with basic skills, constant fighting, police, ss involvement, council involvement, from many areas. Ambulances.. On and on and on.

So have I. I work with kids affected by all those issues. Very poor,predominantly white area. Most of those things ,including drugs (massive issue at the moment) are committed by British people though.

GirlsBlouse17 · 10/09/2019 19:17

How will us being inside or outside of the EU make any difference to that though

Am not saying that makes any difference. The question was about whether FOM works well. In an ideal world, I think it works well. However in a world where there are criminals and terrorists, I think it helps to have a degree of control

If terrorists are able to get across a sea border, what makes you think that a land border will stop them

Am not saying it would stop them altogether, but the more challenges they face, the less incidents there may be

familycourtq · 10/09/2019 19:22

it still comes from the UK choosing not to exercise its immigration rights under EU law.

I see this mentioned a lot - what rights?

HermioneWeasley · 10/09/2019 19:22

I think it depends on your perspective - if you live in London and have well paid work, you’re probably grateful for the influx of people willing to do unskilled labour such as serve your coffee, and for reliable polish builders.

If you live in Spalding which is now something like 70% Eastern European and are struggling to get a GP appointment and your kids are being taught in a portacabin with 8 different first languages in the class, you might think it’s working less well.

The lack of ability to discuss this without being shouted down as racists and bigots, was a big contributor to Brexit IMO.

Newearringsplease · 10/09/2019 19:29

Well said , my 14 yr old ds got in trouble at school for not helping the Polish boy do his work. He goes to school to learn not teach

EmeraldShamrock · 10/09/2019 19:30

I am yet to know an EU immigrant in the UK that is not working hard
Many work very hard.
EU citizens have become a big part of the community.
Unfortunately we got many Romany gypsy families around here, they are pleasant they don't work, collect rubbish and prefer to beg, houses at 1800 a month rent covered by housing benefit, it does cause tension.

MongerTruffle · 10/09/2019 19:32

familycourtq If, after 3 months of living in an EU member state, an EU citizen has become a burden on the welfare system (i.e. they are not employed, self-employed, a student nor self-sufficient), the member state has the right to deport them. The UK has chosen not to exercise this, because that would mean having a centralised system of who lives in the country, and as we all know, the UK government doesn't tend to handle large computer systems very well.

MongerTruffle · 10/09/2019 19:34

after 3 months of living in an EU member state, an EU citizen

'EU' in this case also includes Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland.

Madamfrog · 10/09/2019 19:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ILoveDolly · 10/09/2019 19:39

As a young couple dh and I considered moving to France as he has connections there, and we lived in Paris for a year problem free, but we decided in the end not to settle there. I think young people should have the option to move freely. It was a good experience.
I know a lot of EU migrants living in this country and they are all good hardworking people paying their taxes. Business People/Café Owners, Nurses & Doctors, Specialist Teachers, Cleaners. People we need.

Madamfrog · 10/09/2019 19:45

A lot of British immigrants in France have semi declared jobs like doing changeovers or cleaning gîtes and scrape a living under the radar. Lots of odd jobs for fellow English speakers: electricity, plumbing etc using UK components which aren't guaranteed here or in conformity. Many have Britanny Ferries qualifications acquired during the channel crossing.

ILoveDolly · 10/09/2019 19:45

To address some of the concerns regarding children and multi-lingual class rooms.
The English speaking child will not be at a disadvantage from having EFL children in the class. I have taught at similar schools and been astonished at how quickly the children pick up languages, and how they learn to communicate with each other. They are only isolated if their parents have taught them to be suspicious of foreigners - if your school has lack of funds and is teaching in a portacabin that's not the children's fault, it is the fault of the funding body (Government?)

TO truly master a skill you need to learn it, and then know it well enough to teach it to someone else. That is a higher learning skill and if your child is being asked to cascade information down to a pupil who does not know it then they obviously getting some quality experience right there. Teaching something is the NEXT step after learning it. What do children lose from helping their classmates?

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 10/09/2019 19:47

Last time you looked into travelling to Romania?

ILoveDolly · 10/09/2019 19:51

Additionally, I have taught in schools where the immigrant non-English speaking children were all well mannered, intelligent and highly proficient in the aspects of their education that didn't need language like maths and drawing. The English kids in the same class were a bunch of sad creatures who didn't know which end of a book was up. But those were not EU migrants in the main, so Brexit won't even make any difference to that catchment area except for maybe slightly less Polish kids (who are also impeccably turned out, quiet and usually well supported by doting parents ime)

StockTakeFucks · 10/09/2019 19:54

Last time you looked into travelling to Romania?

If you haven't, you should. It's a beautiful country.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 10/09/2019 20:37

I didn’t ask if I should I ask when people last did.

When all the EU countries were similar and equal numbers moved between them freedom of movement made sense!

HeresMe · 10/09/2019 21:02

There is factory's near where I live which are 90% staffed by eastern Europeans are those recruiters recruiting those on purpose or activity advertised in those countries. It makes me wonder.

I am not saying we should have any priority, but some company's recruiting seems very suspect.

You live in your nice middle class areas, but outside those young brits workers can't get Thier jobs which is why in my area a a large number of the youth voted leave.

SuitedandBooted · 10/09/2019 21:11

ILove Dolly

"I have taught in schools where the immigrant non-English speaking children were all well mannered, intelligent and highly proficient"

ALL immigrant children - seriously?? ALL? Confused

Can we just stop with the daft generalisations, please? Many children (and their families) from EU countries do very well, both in society and school, others very clearly do not. That's because they are just people, drawn from all abilities and levels of society.

Being born on the other side of the Channel does not make you uniquely virtuous.....

Strangely enough, the teachers in this school (Fir Vale School, Sheffield) don't appear to have shared your overwhelmingly positive experience. They are certainly trying their hardest, but it is by no means easy, and the level of support needed cannot be sustained. This is quite an old article, by the way, and more recent ones show that there are still ongoing problems.

The population of Roma pupils in Sheffield's schools has rocketed in recent years, from just 100 in 2009 to 2,100 today. That demographic shift has brought challenges. According to Ofsted, Roma and gypsy pupils have traditionally had the poorest educational outcomes of any ethnic group in England, as well as having high exclusion rates and low levels of attendance and attainment.

The number of gypsy and Roma students in English schools rose by 13.7 per cent to 19,000 between 2013 and 2014. In 2013, just 23 per cent of gypsy or Roma pupils in England achieved level 4 or above in reading, writing and maths at the end of key stage 2, compared with 75 per cent of all pupils nationally.

A report published by Ofsted in December (bit.lyOfsted Roma) highlights a number of problems facing schools with an influx of Roma students, including a lack of specialist advice, a shortage of English language teachers and weaknesses in the transition from primary to secondary education. Schools are also struggling to support low-achieving Roma children because of delays in accessing pupil premium funding, it adds.

"All the schools and local authorities visited reported that they had struggled to recruit Roma-speaking staff who could build bridges, linguistically and culturally, between home and school," the report says.

Accordingly, managing the new students' behaviour initially proved to be a challenge at Fir Vale.

"The big issue with the students was just getting them to sit down and get on with their work," Mr Ali said. "I had a couple of Year 7s and as soon as I sat down, they'd get up and go. And I'd be running after them. It was like playing hide and seek, it was all fun and games.

"But now, we've seen massive changes. One Monday, the students were supposed to finish at 2.55pm but they wouldn't get out, they wanted to finish their work, so they stayed until 3.15pm. It's not all plain sailing but we have noticed a difference in their behaviour."

The Roma students are not taught on the main school site but at a nearby education centre, where they study a tailored curriculum of maths, English, science and other subjects. They are taught in small groups with just three students to every staff member. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, however, they have only half a day of lessons before heading to the gym.

"We do a warm-up and stretches," Mr Ali said. "Then they either use the equipment - learning the names is good for their literacy - or do a kick-boxing class. I don't have them fighting each other, it's all hitting pads or bags."

Roma student Dalibor Ziga, 13, moved to England from Slovakia with his family when he was 2. For him, Fir Vale's radical approach has brought immediate benefits. "It has helped me get on with learning," he said. "The boxing has helped me become more relaxed."

But although the Roma students' behaviour has improved markedly, the school still faces another challenge: funding such high-intensity support. Schools are eligible for additional pupil premium funding for students from deprived backgrounds, but Ms Martin said this did not cover the school's costs.

"We haven't got enough money to put that additional support in," she said. "The difference with these students isn't just that they don't have the language but they don't have previous experience of education. They have a level of need that is so significant."

Source:
www.tes.com/news/boxing-clever-improve-roma-pupils-behaviour

user1471519931 · 10/09/2019 21:14

Freedom of movement is amazing and has given me educational and career opportunities beyond my wildest dreams...I'm from small rural ordinary state school background and have worked and lived in various parts of Europe! What an amazing stramash of cultures 👌

familycourtq · 10/09/2019 21:19

@MongerTruffle but that wouldn’t have reduced the numbers significantly (most are actively employed) so it’s not correct to say the UK could have restricted numbers.

doublebarrellednurse · 10/09/2019 21:27

There is so much misinformation in this thread my head is throbbing.

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 10/09/2019 21:42

Can we just stop with the daft generalisations, please? Many children (and their families) from EU countries do very well, both in society and school, others very clearly do not. That's because they are just people, drawn from all abilities and levels of society.*

Sense at last! Thank you!!! I am sick of death of both sides going so extreme. Not every blooming EU migrant to the UK is a dr and not every EU migrant is a criminal. This is why a fair immigration system, not an open door policy is best.
I

familycourtq · 11/09/2019 11:59

There is so much misinformation in this thread my head is throbbing.

Poor you. But thanks for letting us know - that was vital.