To think freedom of movement, as it is, actually works well?

[KennDodd]

Yanbu - works well.
Yabu - does not work well

I do think that it is not just the number of EU workers coming to the UK, it is the rate. There has been such a big increase in numbers over such a short time it has caused problems.

Also, the original idea was for free movement of labour, not free movement of people - they are very different. It means that if there was a labour shortage then workers from other countries could easily come in to take the jobs. What is happening is that people are coming to look for work which may not exist, and then stay on.

Thirdly, many EU migrants have stayed much longer than they or anyone else had planned for. When politicians and civil servants think of free movement they tend to assume that people will come here, work for a bit and then go back home. They will be short term productive units.

However, a lot of people who were only intending to stay for a couple of years have suddenly found themselves married and settled, and with children at school here. The country therefore has within a very short time gained a whole lot of extra people to look after long term, when they are ill, there are their children to educate and they may have to be looked after in old age too.

Immigration into a country is a good sign of a healthy and growing economy, but there do need to be controls.

I keep reading about the problems being caused by Albanian crime gangs in the UK. Why are they seemingly allowed to operate so effectively here? Albania is not even in the EU yet?

If we were better able to control these criminal elements, then I think many people would feel much more relaxed about immigration as a whole.The feeling that anyone who feels like it can just come here and do what they want does make people feel uneasy, and just saying that every migrant you know is a hard working professional doesn't help that negative feeling.

The numbers we are given are, at best, a guess based on whatever that analyst believes to be the best data available

Or sometimes what those paying for the analysis want them to say

As so often when considering things like this, follow the money ...

The repeated claims that "The UK could have restricted numbers" aren't the whole story.

It's true that if we had invested a huge amount of money in IT , infrastructure and enforcement workers (extra Police, Border Force, admin staff) we could have ensured people went home if they hadn't found a job in 3 months.

But since the huge numbers who arrived were mostly gainfully employed that would have been a hugely expensive exercise for basically nothing.

The claim that the UK government could have restricted numbers but didn't is basically false.

Freedom of movement is amazing and has given me educational and career opportunities beyond my wildest dreams

I don't doubt FOM assisted with this but these things happened before the EU.

In 1919 a Swiss man came here and started Betty's of Harrogate.

Fom doesn't work because a tiny island like the UK can not sustain net migration at 300k per year - that was the figure around the time of the referendum. France is 3 times the size of the UK with roughly the same population.

Yes we need more houses anyway, but I don't want to live on a concrete island. Merkel made it worse by allowing 1 million people into Germany - many of those will eventually gain an EU passport.

Most Eastern European migrants I personally know all came here to work and do work, but the sheer numbers that came are one of the reasons wages are low in this country.

They're a lot more EU nationals in the UK, than there are UK nationals in the EU. IMO freedom of movement benefits the EU more than the UK. YABU

It’s great for business being able to employ people at lower than the going rate

It perfectly open to exploitation which means people here lose out and people coming over can easily be exploited but business grows so all is ok

Short term solution it’s great long term not so much

I don’t think it is one of the EU’s better policies and yes I do know we could have controlled it better when new countries joined

They're a lot more EU nationals in the UK, than there are UK nationals in the EU. IMO freedom of movement benefits the EU more than the UK. YABU

See this sums up exactly what bothers me about this whole argument and thank you to the PP for helping me nail my own thoughts.

SO WHAT?

So what if it benefits the EU more than the UK? We win some things and lose others it's not a great loss overall. I'm pretty sure by actual statistics across a number of areas at the time of the referendum we came off quite nicely.

I honestly don't care if it benefits the EU more than us. That doesn't automatically equate to us losing anything it just means the EU gains more.

I work with a large amount of immigrants and they are marvellous. Your health service wouldn't cope with out them. The same people screaming about money for the NHS (which isn't going to come) are screwing it royally by petitioning again FOM.

Why are we so focussed on what the rest of the world can do for us when we do so little for the rest of the world?

I believe the uk to be a CF.

With the emergence of the BRICS and increasing reliance on automation and computers taking jobs, British workers are going to have to step up regardless. Ultimately whether the person taking what used to be your job is one street away or one continent away, the result is the same.

You're quite right, we should look at it in a 'give and take' manner. Of course the UK benefits from being in the EU in some ways, but equally the EU is benefitting from the UK's membership in some ways. You have to ask yourself why so many EU nationals are here, and not the other way round. We are, or maybe were, an attractive option for EU nationals.

The UK just can't sustain the numbers coming though. Can you imagine how much worse things would be now if that amount of people were still piling onto the island every year? That would mean nearly another 1 million people in the country since the referendum.

I couldn't give a toss about where people come from, and totally agree that a lot of people come to work, it's the numbers that get my back up. I don't believe that we 'need' all the EU workers either. I still know plenty of people, all British born, who have barely had a job in their life, all living in social housing - it's time they were made to work.

This isn’t just about EU countries.

Why should people from Non EU countries be treated differently?
I have known a Canadian who was refused the right to remain even though she is married to a Brit (married in Uk) has a British child (born and raised here) and is employed full time. Because she didn’t make enough income (I believe it was over 26000 a year) she was told she would have to leave the country and her British citizen young child and return to Canada. She has always worked legally and pays tax. Would be no issue if she was say Bulgarian.
Similar happened to an Australian friend of mine who was denied the right to remain even though he is a qualified nurse and married to a British citizen. Very few people believe it when they find out what had happened as there seems to be a belief that if you are married, raising a child here and a tax paying employed person contributing to society that you will be able to stay. Nope. Depends entirely where you were born. There is an entire untold story to the other side of this.

Toasted - we have to cap non-EU migrants because we've allowed a free for all on low skilled EU migrants who've dragged wages down. My guess is that most high skilled migrants - Drs etc are from outside the EU. I'd love to move to Australia, I can't offer them anything though so they don't want me. Australia putting their own interests first, as they should.

Shocking about the Australian nurse though, I thought we were desperate for nurses regardless of where they come from?

How many people from the UK going over to work in Bulgaria for the their full time minimum wage of £255 a month? Not much of an opportunity from this side of the fence really.
I did :) I make a few times what you quoted and my quality of life has massively improved compared to when I lived in the UK, although I do miss London sometimes. Much more family-friendly and less stressful.
@Kakfor, it's good to see another MNer in Bulgaria, we should arrange a MN meetup!

In 1919 a Swiss man came here and started Betty's of Harrogate
The problem is not Swiss immigrants. Or French, German, Italian, Spanish, etc. The problem is Eastern Europeans. FOM only works when the countries are of similar wealth. It breaks down when poor countries join and millions of their people immediately flood to the rich countries.