To be saddened people still do these things on holiday?

[lastqueenofscotland]

Had a summer of holidays pictures on social media m which had included a lot of people
Swimming with dolphins
Going to sea world in Orlando
Posing with drugged up tigers for pictures
Riding elephants in Thailand

So on and so forth. In an age where information about the poor treatment of these animals is so well known and freely available AIBU to feel a bit sad about it.
I also want to publicly call them out... but that won’t go well.

They didn't choose to be domesticated by people.

Except they did. All domesticated species did. They co-evolved with humans.

The notion that humans stole wild animals, tamed them and that domesticated species are tamed wild animals is primary school science. It is simply not accurate.

The instances where humans attempted to do that without the mutuality necessary failed.

Same goes for domesticated species of plants.

@DoctorAllcome Guess whose FAQ this is from?

I’VE HEARD THAT DOLPHINS RESCUE DROWNING VICTIMS AT SEA. IS THAT TRUE?

Although there have been many stories and myths told, there is limited valid documented evidence of a wild marine mammal saving a human’s life. There was recently video footage released of dolphins in Australia herding a group of swimmers together when there were sharks in the area. Although dolphins have been documented participating in altruistic behavior towards other animals, there is not sufficient evidence documented that it happens with humans. One should be cautious in believing these stories at face value.

I.am disgusted that people still go to such places especially as it is so widely known animals are drugged etc. A friend of DD went to an elephant "sanctuary" in Thailand and some of what what she said made me think the place was no sanctuary and clearly there to get tourists in.
I read something recently about a bear who span one way. She had been kept to "entertain" tourists and she would only get fed if she did this. If certainly wasn't a form of enrichment and not a natural behaviour. Very sad.

Hang on DoctorAllcome is doing the wildlife equivalent of mansplaining. Unless we’re based in the US and rubbing along with raccoons in our everyday life we need to wind our necks in. There is literally no green space left in the British Isles. No wildlife to be seen. Righty oh.

I saw a red squirrel in a not particularly rural part of Northumberland this year so our wildlife hasn't died out just yet.

Humans have domesticated horses, dogs, cats, pigs, rats, rabbits....many many animals that still also have wild populations. Why should this stop? What is interaction if not part of the process of befriending and domesticating?

But the dolphins by your own admission were "rescued" wild dolphins. So not domesticated.

I also don't think you understand what domesticated means. Pet rabbits are not the same as wild ones in the field. There's a bigger difference then, we brought him in and shoved him in a hutch. Same with chickens, dogs, cats ect.

Also what would be the purpose of domesticating a dolphin.

By the way, @DoctorAllcome, looking further at the website you linked to, most of what you have said about your experience sounds like utter bollocks to me:

I have swum with dolphins but it was at a dolphin rescue place. Numerous dolphins get injured by jet skis, boats, fishing industry and these ones are rescued and nursed back to health before being released back into the wild. We donated to it and so were invited to come in and see the dolphins there were nursing.

So you definitely weren’t swimming with the normal, captive dolphins that are there specifically for humans to swim with? You know, the ones that you can book through the big ‘SWIM’ menu on their website, or through the 10% discount offer that pops up as soon as you visit the site?

This is what their FAQ says:

WHERE DID THESE DOLPHINS COME FROM? WERE THEY RESCUED?
All but two of our current dolphins were born right here in the facility. Under the Marine Mammal Protection Act, there are certain provisions that allow wild marine mammals to be taken from the wild. These provisions require extensive permits for research, educational, and public display purposes, or even enhancing survival of a marine mammal species (NMFS). Our original group of dolphins was collected from the Sarasota Bay area in the late 1970s and early 1980s to begin a Natural Swim program at Dolphins Plus Marine Mammal Responder. Over the years, Dolphins Plus Marine Mammal Responder has expanded due to many successful births, and these dolphins make up our current population.
In the past, Dolphins Plus Marine Mammal Responder housed a rescue dolphin named Castaway. She had stranded herself in Castaway Cove, off of Jensen Beach, on the east coast of Florida. Castaway was rehabilitated by the Marine Mammal Conservancy and was moved to Dolphins Plus Marine Mammal Responder in 2007.

They only allow one group a day in the water with the dolphins for 2hrs

From their FAQ: “The dolphins at DPMMR are extremely stimulated throughout the day. A typical day consists of three to four sessions where the general public is invited to interact and observe the dolphins, as well as several other shorter sessions for trainers to concentrate on husbandry and new training.”

The dolphin person pointed out each dolphin, their name, how they were rescued, how long they’d been there, which ones were going to be released back soon.

Really? Because that’s not what the FAQ entry above suggests.

No, incorrect otherwise they’d have all the 640 stranded dolphins they have rescued there and they do not.

No, they have two of the ones they originally captured from the wild and the rest of the ones that have been bred in captivity. That makes up the whole population of the centre (not forgetting the lone dolphin that was a rescue but isn’t there any more.)

@ItsGoingTibiaK
Nice work Sherlock. Except for one small detail. We went in 2001. A lot can change in 18yrs.

@Teddypicker1
Dolphins are already domesticated. Check out our US military dolphins. They pretty much do the same as bomb sniffer military dogs, only for sea mines. And since they work in the open ocean and choose not to swim away...there is that mutual consent operating there that someone mentioned.
My point regarding sameness was that there are domesticated and wild populations of the same species for a lot of animals. For example, every year in New Mexico we manage the herds of the wild broncos by capturing and domesticating some of them. Which is good because if the herds get too big, they tend to have massive die offs due to lack of grazing.

@DoctorAllcome

Who made you center of the universe?
If I had been responding to you, I would have done the @ with your name.
Like I have every other time.

No one made me centre of the universe and this is a laughable post.
You are doing the classic thing of being unable to address the argument cogently so are just calling people names!! It's pathetic.

1 - You went swimming with captive dolphins but defended it because it was at a conservation centre implying these were dolphins being rehabed for release.
2 - When it's pointed out to you keeping dolphins in captivity is cruel not just by me but other people, you post a bunch of stuff about the conservation work.
3 - You can't accept that keeping an animal that normally swims a 100 miles a day and would live in a larger social group in a ltank with a couple of its children is cruel and don't even engage with that point.

1. You then post some ridiculous unrelated stuff about how soon people will say sheep shearing is cruel.

You are are still not engaging with the main point - swimming with dolphins kept in captivity is supporting a cruel practice whatever good work is done elsewhere. No one would be going oh yeah it's great that the man next door who tortures kittens is donating a lot of money to charity. We can turn a blind eye to the kitten torture because he does so much good with his money.

You can still swim with dolphins in the wild in NZ. It is heavily policed and managed. Last summer I took my kids on a boat trip in the Marlborough sounds. It was a postal boat that delivers the mail to remote farms. On the way back the boat stopped and let everyone off for a walk but my kids and I stayed on the boat. We went to a remote bay to wait and we were swimming and jumping off the back of the boat when a dolphin and her calf showed up. They hung around us for about 10 mins. It was quite amazing. No food involved. We didn't touch them, but they came so close to us, out of curiosity I guess.

Consider too the mighty US buffalo. 100yrs ago, 100% were wild. Today, 99% are domesticated with only one wild herd in Yellowstone in existence.
That line between wild and domesticated is pretty fuzzy and porous.

DoctorAllcome Sat 07-Sep-19 23:18:1
@ItsGoingTibiaK
Nice work Sherlock. Except for one small detail. We went in 2001. A lot can change in 18yrs.

Ha ha ha. Did you even read the link I posted above. Their first dolphin listed was born in 1993!!!

In 18 years dolphins have stopped wanting to swim a 100 miles a day in a pod, they now want to be with a couple of others and walk to the shop.

@INeedToThrowItAllOut

“You are are still not engaging with the main point - swimming with dolphins kept in captivity is supporting a cruel practice”

I already answered this. But I’ll do it again.
No, in my opinion, swimming with dolphins in captivity is not always supporting a cruel practice. Just like merely riding a horse is not always supporting the cruel practice of horse racing.

@DoctorAllcome Nice work Sherlock. Except for one small detail. We went in 2001. A lot can change in 18yrs.

True. It's likely that they've changed the number of sessions they run a day in the last 18 years so they can squeeze more money out of gullible people who kid themselves that they're interacting with dolphins in their natural environment maximise the opportunities for the dolphins to take part in natural, stimulating activities.

So before I dazzle you with my ability to also look up historical information, do you want to admit that you were actually swimming with captive dolphins, specially trained to swim with humans, and that none of them were rescue dolphins, shortly to be released?

I am still hoping to hear how to set up fostering of orphans in SE Asia so that all orphanages can be closed.

Here is an example of an organisation supporting the worldwide transition away from orphanages to foster homes or support within the community for children to stay with their own families. And a plan for how this will happen over the next 30 years:

www.wearelumos.org/what-we-do/our-impact/

It is extremely othering to imply that orphanages are simply necessary/a fact of life in poorer countries, when we wouldn't accept that here.

Is there a name for this phenomenon BTW, because I see it all the time? When you think someone is being too idealistic so you invite them to solve the problem you think is unsolvable, even if you don't know the reasons for why something is the way it currently is yourself? It's a nice little way to shut down debate. I see it on left/right wing issues as well. Whenever you suggest that something ought to be funded better "Please provide me with a breakdown of how exactly this will be funded then," when the person doesn't know the first thing about the national budget themselves.

You don't have to be an expert or have all the answers to be an advocate for something or know that something is wrong. Obviously it is useful to be open minded and willing to learn and be corrected.

@INeedToThrowItAllOut
So what if one dolphin was born there in 1993? (And no others until 2011)
Surely it only corroborates that most of the dolphins there in 2001 were rescues like I remember. In fact, the longest resident dolphins there now are rescues. Look at Bob, Dinghy, & Jessica.

You can have a very fucking eye opening experience visiting a children's home in the UK, believe me. Weirdly though people don't tend to be as keen.

Well of course not! That's just literally and metaphorically "too close to home". Those poor rejected brown and Asian babies in poverty just love cuddles, and a $50 donation in a pot.

Poverty tourism whether it's humans or animals, is disgraceful.
Inconsistency is probably worse than absence. I can't actually imagine what it must feel like to a child, getting a cuddle, warmth and love from a stranger, and then plonked down into sadness again, but because they've put a donation in a bucket too, they've "made a difference". Then the next affluent stranger turns up, gives them love, and fucks off.

It's sickening.

@ItsGoingTibiaK
Why would I admit to something that did not happen?

Do you really have nothing better to do on a Saturday night?

It’ll go to waste you know. Better off just donating to dolphin conservation. Like I do.

I went to Elephant Nature Park in Thailand a few years ago, the one mentioned upthread as being one of the only ones considered ethical as there is no riding and all the elephants there are rescued.

When I was there I saw how even this place was a bit fake and I felt pretty bad about going. The elephants do wander during the day but they are locked in at night. The male elephants are kept seperate in a smaller area (they would attack the humans otherwise). You can wash the elephants by throwing water at them, but this isn't something they need or want - they stand there during it because they are getting fed.

The volunteering thing is a bit fake as well.
They actually don't need the volunteers, the only thing of value they get from them is the money they pay for the week. The volunteers do real jobs like cleaning the enclosures and unloading food trucks, but 80 volunteers do about 1/10th of the work the regular workers do (a team of about 10) in the same time, so they don't add much.

The owner/founder is genuine in wanting to help elephants. She gave a talk, one thing she said was that she hates humans coming to the park and wishes she had enough money to run the park without them coming.

I am genuinely interested because I have spent a lot of time over the last 35 years working with the charity running the orphanage I support, and I can appreciate that it would be extremely difficult to sort out fostering in those particular circumstances. I think there would be a very high risk of the children ending up back in in the bars being abused by the same sort of people who abused their mothers. The mothers who were encouraged/forced to be there by their families.
I think it is good that fostering is being facilitated and encouraged, but it isn't without risk.
There is always risk, especially in a poor country with a rigid class divide and lots of corruption.

www.intrepidtravel.com/adventures/to-do-orphanage-tourism-blog/

Maybe have a read of this- orphanage tourism, for children, is actually now something many people are boycotting and for good reason. The gap year students building buildings are usually not built well, and which tend are exploited in many of these places. It's as bad as the elephant and tigers IMO.

I live in Korea, which also has a large number of orphanages/children's homes. There are a few reasons - there is very little interest in adoption here since family bloodlines are considered to be very important. Sex education is abysmal and having a child outside marriage is still very taboo, plus disability is seen as something disgusting or embarrassing so any child born with a disability is very likely to be put up for adoption (but never adopted unless to the west which is another issue entirely). These children's homes get very little/no government support.

And yet, I don't see hoards of westerners descending on Korea to pat the cute little orphans. Why is that? I'd say the answer is pretty obvious. Korea is a modern, developed country, where the people walk around with smartphones, dressed in designer labels, living in big fancy apartment blocks, listening to hip hop or pop music, looking and acting very much like the average westerner.

People don't come to Korea to see poor people. It's as simple as that. Go to Thailand or Cambodia to see the nice poor people and give the nice little babies hugs, but people would not do the same thing to children in Korea, because they find them too relatable.

What's interesting is that as Korea becomes more and more developed (even 30 years ago, there was a lot more poverty, and until the 50s, it was one of the poorest countries in the world), they also start to join in with the poverty tourism. Even 10 years ago, you didn't really see that, but in the last 5 or so years, it is increasing. They volunteer to work in orphanages in SEA, they go there to teach Korean or English (despite having no teaching skills), they have thousands of missionaries handing out food in order to persuade people to go to church, they post the pictures of them holding little black babies in Africa...and yet, they have little to no interest in the adoption crisis in their own country. Nor the elderly poverty crisis. Nor the homelessness problem.

When countries become rich, they are ashamed of their own poor, I think. It is too close to home when we look at someone and think that it could be us in that position. Much safer to go to Thailand and think that essentially those people are in an orphanage/homeless shelter/on the street because, well, of course, because they are inherently poor. It is a saviour complex. People who visit those places don't see the people they are 'helping' as equals. They cannot imagine that person working beside them in an office, or being their manager, or giving them a lecture. They see them as childlike, below them, someone who they can help but not someone who could ever help them, beyond giving them some instagram likes, some feels and maybe 'realise how happy we can be with so little hashtag smiles hashtag thailand hashtag crying eyes emoji'.

"I can appreciate that it would be extremely difficult to sort out fostering in those particular circumstances. I think there would be a very high risk of the children ending up back in in the bars being abused by the same sort of people who abused their mothers."

This is why it is necessary to support and facilitate charities which are run by local people to provide skills and opportunities to children and their families to break that cycle.

I mentioned these two charities before, but their work is so much better than the type of places that encourage foreigners to visit and hug children.

They run restaurants and shops to give jobs and skills to teenagers escaping poverty. They teach women how to sew and make products so that they can use their skills to make things so they don't end up working in prostitution.

I would rather support a teenager by going to a restaurant they work in, where we are meeting on the basis of being equals, as customer and waiter, than lobbing some knock off t-shirts and notebooks at them, giving them a hug and fucking off again.

These charities are run by local people, who know the culture and the country, who understand both the problems and the skills and advantages these people have. They support people to make their own money, to create their own life, as they want to live it. That's so much healthier than just chucking money or English at the issue.

friends-international.org/in-cambodia

mloptapang.org

As for all the teaching English programmes...I'm just regularly gobsmacked by them. I mean, what is the point of a teenager or university student trying to teach English? I know teaching is scarcely regarded as a profession in the UK these days, but there's a reason you need to train to do it. How much English do you think someone can learn in an afternoon? And what do you think they're even going to use the English for? Do you think a child in a Thai orphanage is going to end up at university or working for an international company?