To be saddened people still do these things on holiday?

[lastqueenofscotland]

Had a summer of holidays pictures on social media m which had included a lot of people
Swimming with dolphins
Going to sea world in Orlando
Posing with drugged up tigers for pictures
Riding elephants in Thailand

So on and so forth. In an age where information about the poor treatment of these animals is so well known and freely available AIBU to feel a bit sad about it.
I also want to publicly call them out... but that won’t go well.

I agree, lastqueen. I remember on holiday once seeing a man with a lion cub who would take photographs of someone holding it, then I found out the cub's teeth are often extracted. How horrible is that!?

Please don't fall into the trap of the 'ethical' interaction with rescued animals (mainly elephants). No riding is humane. Even the bathing experiences aren't good for them, they need dirt on their skin to protect against the sun - constant scrubbing from tourists isn't good for them.

If you can interact with them, then it's not humane. Choose attractions where you can see them from a distance.

If you can interact with them, then it's not humane.

This.

I would assume a horse doesn't actually want to be ridden either, 'domesticated' or not

It's nothing to do with entertainment, it's learning about a part of our world, we don't normally get to know about. It's not just about jumping in and taking a picture, it's the whole education part before and after

Funnily enough my DC knows a whole lot about dinosaurs despite never having seen one. Being up close with wild animals is not necessary to “learn about them”. Especially when it is so traumatizing for them

@DoctorAllcome
It’s obvious you are cherry picking things and ignoring substance

I'm really not. I said that I didn't doubt they did conservation work BUT and this is you TOTALLY ignoring the substance - they have resident dolphins who have been bred in capitivity. These are the dolphins that are going to be the primary dolphins in the "swim with dolphins".

That's just unpleasant and cruel. I don't care how much other great work they do, if YOU are choosing to pay to swim with dolphins you are supporting a dolphins in captivity for entertainment programme.

& for the people saying Blackfish is fiction - you really need to watch it. Obviously it is a documentary so is aimed for sale to the public but a huge part of the content comes from evidence put forward in a trial following the death of Dawn Brancheau -

SeaWorld of Florida v. Perez, Case No. 12-1375.SeaWorld chose to chose to disputed the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) finding that it failed in its duty to provide a safe workplace. OSHA recommended a penalty of $70,000.

Here's the Federal Court judgment which was the final dismissal

www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/5AF8A4C12F19AE2185257CB700516292/$file/12-1375-1487925.pdf

"... the record establishes that SeaWorld did not lack fair notice because the hazard arising from trainers’ close contactwith killer whales in performance is preventable. Given evidence of continued incidents of aggressive behavior by killer whales toward trainers notwithstanding SeaWorld’s training ... ".

It's not fictionalised made up stuff. It's based on evidence - so things like 911 call, the autopsy report of Dawn Brancheau, evidence of eye witnesses and people who worked there giving evidence on oath - if you lie you know you go to prison.

Next we will hear how it is cruel to shear sheep of their wool. And that petting zoos are an abomination.
That dog shows are also a symptom of breeding animals in captivity for entertainment and are the reason puppy mills exist.

Honestly, yes there are places and people that are cruel to animals, but it is wrong to assume that all animal conservation places engage in cruel practices. It is also wrong to assume that an animal bred in captivity is unhappy or better off in the wild and that any human interaction is somehow morally wrong.

Humans have domesticated horses, dogs, cats, pigs, rats, rabbits....many many animals that still also have wild populations. Why should this stop? What is interaction if not part of the process of befriending and domesticating?

It is also wrong to assume that an animal bred in captivity is unhappy or better off in the wild and that any human interaction is somehow morally wrong.

You are either deluded or stupid to compare sheep shearing or petting zoos to dolphins.

Try reading this - it's for children but appears to be about your level.

Q3. How big would an appropriate tank have to be for keeping dolphins in captivity?
No tank can be big enough as they can swim up to 100 miles a day and it is also impossible to replicate their natural environment in captivity.

www.wdcs.org/wdcskids/en/story_details.php?select=606

I am still hoping to hear how to set up fostering of orphans in SE Asia so that all orphanages can be closed.

@KateWrong
“Being up close with wild animals is not necessary to “learn about them”. Especially when it is so traumatizing for them”

This is wrong on so many levels. Humans are not aliens. We are part of the eco-system. Our presence next to another earth animal is no more traumatizing than a bird being next to a squirrel in a tree. It is only traumatizing if you are acting as a predator and doing them harm.

Too many city people commenting on here who have never interacted with even a raccoon!

doctorallcome you’re spectacularly missing the point. You’re condemning swimming with dolphins in pretty much all cases except your own. The place you went to breeds dolphins in captivity with no plans to release and trains the dolphins to whistle for people to ride them. Myself and others are pointing out that you’ve fallen for their bullshit and that the place you went to is as bad as many of the others.

Q1. Why is it not a good idea to keep dolphins in captivity?

Dolphins are highly intelligent animals. In the wild they live in complex social groups.
In captivity, dolphins live shorter lives than they do in the wild. This is significant given the fact that they are kept in an environment that is free of predators, pollution and other threats that they face in the wild.
Wild dolphins can swim up to 100 miles a day but in captivity they have very little space in which to move around and so cannot behave naturally. The captive environment can never replace their natural one.

@INeedToThrowItAllOut
Excuse me? I did not compare anything to dolphins. Please re-read my post. I did not address you, and I did not mention the word dolphin once in my post about sheep and dogs.

Oh come off it!

You posted. It is also wrong to assume that an animal bred in captivity is unhappy or better off in the wild and that any human interaction is somehow morally wrong.

Immediately after my post about the fact that there were dolphins bred in capativity in the place you went swimming with dolphins.

You are in the middle of a thread predominantly about Seaworld, orcas, dolphins with a bit of orphanage tourism - you post that and then claim you aren't comparing it to dolphins.

Dear oh dear.

Our presence next to another earth animal is no more traumatizing than a bird being next to a squirrel in a tree. It is only traumatizing if you are acting as a predator and doing them harm.

You are spectacularly naive if you think humans are as harmless as a bird next to a squirrel in a tree. In the context of elephants, please look up how elephants’ spirits are broken before you say things like this

As for ”Too many city people on here who have never even interacted with a raccoon”. You know nothing about me and what my experiences have been

I live in the countryside but I’ve never seen a raccoon.

@FFSDH
No, did not “condemn all cases but my own” that’s what you guys are doing.
No, incorrect otherwise they’d have all the 640 stranded dolphins they have rescued there and they do not. And,
No, it’s more that the BS is assuming all human interaction with wild animals is wrong. In fact, the blind adherence to such an absolute belief is cultish.

@INeedToThrowItAllOut
? Who made you center of the universe?
If I had been responding to you, I would have done the @ with your name.
Like I have every other time.

Oh, yes. Dolphins and humans. Always bumping into each other in the wild, just like squirrels and birds are. Because they definitely share a habitat don't they, in those vast oceans, hundreds of metres down. Can't move for humans going about their daily lives down there, happily co-habiting with dolphins.

And when they do bump into each other, you can be sure the dolphin will naturally, with no training at all, come along and give the human its special nudge - you know, the one that means 'come swim on my back - but only in the safely prescribed way!'

You can tell the dophins loves it, cos they're always smiling, innit?

@FFSDH
Well, I am in the US where we have wildlife. The U.K. population density is such that you don’t really have any wildernesses left.

There are no chains, elephants are ridden bare back because harnesses are bad for them and are not hit. The focus of the day was how to look after them

I hope this was a wind up.

it’s probably more that we don’t have raccoons, but ok.

@endofthelinefinally
Most of the orphanages in SEA are neither charitable nor for orphans. The children have rarely lost both parents, and in some places (Cambodia is particularly bad for this) children are 'bought' from struggling families to feed the orphanage tourism business.

Seriously, read up on the problem. Ethical NGOs attempt to support communities in managing children in need or who have lost parents.

One of the projects I'm involved in supports grandmothers caring full time for their orphaned or abandoned grandchildren. The project has set up a sewing group for these women where they not only learn a craft, but earn money to feed the children, and somewhere they can provide each other with moral support.

One of those groups is now entirely self sufficient, so the project has now stood back and let the women run their own small business independently (having taught them book-keeping). That's the ideal really. Help communities set up their own groups by getting them training (from locals ideally - our project had the local tailor teaching the women to sew, and a local book-keeper teaching them how to run the business) and then leaving them to it because they don't need that support any more.
Oh, and the nurses I mentioned before helped the women learn about healthcare for the children and first aid. Now the grandmothers train young women in the village.

In other places those orphaned or abandone children would have been taken to orphanages. But providing their grandparents with the means of caring for them means that they can stay in the communities where they belong.

@ItsGoingTibiaK
And when they do bump into each other, you can be sure the dolphin will naturally, with no training at all, come along and give the human its special nudge - you know, the one that means 'come swim on my back - but only in the safely prescribed way!'

I know you meant to be sarcastic, but consider this. Since the Ancient Greeks, there have been numerous recorded incidents of wild dolphins saving shipwrecked sailors in just such a manner.