Is Scottish nationalism okay but English Nationalism isn't?

[Missangrypants]

That really. Why is the phrase 'English nationalism" mentioned with scorn but "Scottish or Welsh nationalism isn't? Should English nationalism always be a byword for racism?

By the way I'm a BAME person and usually define myself as British rather than English even though born in England.

The negative connotations are because of the people that associate themselves with the term. English nationalists by stereotype are far right, anti immigration, Islamophobic, and have a penchant for fighting. Scottish and Welsh might be a bit shouty but are generally not rude or violent.

I haven't personally experienced Scottish independence campaigners as using xenophobic arguments.

The movement has generally seemed to embrace new Scots as Scottish eg today I spent time with Scottish people who grew up in england/the west indies/south Asia.
They're Scottish.
They're part of our communities.

(Social attitudes surveys show there's just as much racism here in Scotland as elsewhere but specifically the independence campaign hasn't seemed to tap into it. And people of color have been a big part of the campaign)

Whereas when I'm in England and I see union flags or st george's flags I wonder if I'm in a racist area where I might also be targeted as a lesbian.

Part of it is to do with English identity being (at least in the past) partly based around colonialism.
Rather than bagpipes and haggis and caber tossing.

And again, Scottish people played a big part in colonialism. Just we don't necessarily identify with that now or celebrate it.

I’m irish and I can’t believe that St. George’s day isn’t celebrated.

The Scottish independence movement is for civic nationalism where the people of Scotland are the ones who live here and make their home here, regardless of where you grew up or what you look like, and I'm immigration is seen as a positive. English nationalism is almost exclusive ethnic nationalism rather than a movement for self/determination.

Civic nationalism my arse.

@Patroclus

Go on?

Scotland has often managed to portray the British Empire as something England did but there were plenty of Scots out claiming land for the crown and naming things after themselves in India Canada Africa etc
my husband is Scottish but not nationalist I'm English living in Scotland I've not experienced much anti Englishness except the odd comment about Football and the odd person who thinks my DD has no English heritage as only her Fathers side is important in this case I think it was nationalism rather than sexism
Glasgow university has in the last few days acknowledged how much its history was tied up in slavery too, Trevor MacDonald the ex -newsreader was not called that name because his great great great grandfather's owner was English

I’m welsh (if you couldn’t tell) and ime welsh nationalism revolves around celebrating wales, our language and traditions. St David’s, eisteddfods and so on.

English nationalism often involves shouting about taking “back control” “keeping the scum out” “saving England from Islam”. They put themselves in the position of wanting to brawl their way to a (what they see as) “pure” England.

I don't think Scotland generally portrays the empire as something English. It's pretty well known that Glasgow was the second city of the empire and was made rich through the slave trade. I think the difference is that there's not a significant sector of society that are nostalgic for those times.

English nationalism is not okay because England is a nation that conquered and exploited other nations, including Scotland and Wales. For god's sake, think about why there are only five million people in Scotland even today. About the way the Welsh were treated. About the Irish penal laws. And then, think about the legacy of horrors that British Colonialism continues to unleash around the world. The situations are not at all equivalent.

By the way, I'm not saying that ethnic nationalism doesn't exist in Scotland - it definitely does. But the independence movement - though also supported by people like that - is founded in the ideals of civic nationalism. For example, there's no doubt that an independent Scotland would be much more open to immigration and being close to other European countries than the UK as a whole is, and this would be supported by the majority of the population, with a significant minority objecting to it. It's a different balance than in England.

As an outsider looking in. Scottish and and Welsh people seem to be proud of their language and culture and pride in their people whoever they may be. English seem to be intent on telling the world how great they are combined with a healthy distrust of Johnny Foreigner. I think major world sporting events are a good measure of how English nationalism is viewed.

English nationalism is almost exclusive ethnic nationalism rather than a movement for self/determination

and the main followers seem to be thuggish dimwits

It's the stereotype of English nationalism. Bald man, lots of tattoos shouting about foreigners.

Of course that's not the case for all, but unfortunately groups like EDL exist, so the stereotype always will.

I would put it in a similar camp to ‘why can’t we have straight pride week’ or ‘international Man’s day’ - which is to say that those who haven’t suffered some sort of persecution do not need to raise awareness etc

The English are historically the oppressors, not the oppressed. So I don't see the need for English nationalism, it's kind of like straight pride.

x-posted with ethelfleda

On the whole though, I don’t general ‘get’ patriotism. How can I be proud for being born in England? I didn’t have any control over it - it’s like being proud of my eye colour... they aren’t MY achievements!

category great minds

"English nationalism is almost exclusive ethnic nationalism rather than a movement for self/determination."

Interesting that 'good' nationalism is based on wanting to have a separate identity from a bigger 'not so good' partner country.

So if Scotland or Wales had been independent countries from the beginning and not part of the Union, would their nationalism still be a good thing?

So the general opinion for many is that because England's colonial past (the other countries in the Union also benefited from) and the usurping of English identity by a rascist and xenophobic minority that's it. English nationalism can never be reclaimed by the decent majority as a good thing.

The scottish were heavily involved with the colonization of northern ireland weren't they?

Welsh Nationalism seems to be more focused on the language, eisteddfod, and our traditions. If someone told me there was a celebrating WNationalism event I’d assume a bit of a knees up with singing. It feels more positive.
If someone told me there would be an English Nationalism event I would just imagine people smashing things up and very angry men involved.

Well, I’m a proud English nationalist. I don’t care what people think of that

When I think of English nationalism I think of Tommy Robinson and co who hate everyone non white.

When I think of Scottish nationalism it is far more inclusive, with the definition of Scot being anyone who lives or works here. It's about celebrating our own culture, education and legal system, music and literature. It's also about having our own voice, Scotland consistently votes for left wing parties yet we have tory governments.

I only recently learned about Scotland's role in the slave trade and was shocked.

I am not keen on Nationalism in any form. In Wales the movement towards Wales having more control over its own affairs is one aspect of Nationalism but there is a nasty side to it as well. Just as xenophobic as English nationalism.