Is Scottish nationalism okay but English Nationalism isn't?

[Missangrypants]

That really. Why is the phrase 'English nationalism" mentioned with scorn but "Scottish or Welsh nationalism isn't? Should English nationalism always be a byword for racism?

By the way I'm a BAME person and usually define myself as British rather than English even though born in England.

The answer seems to be if you're a Scrappy Doo country you're more of an irritant than a threat whereas if you're a fully fledged Scooby Doo country even those at the bottom are supposed to consider themselves well off and should check their privilege.

Don't really think you can say England conquered Scotland. There were regular punch ups, then a Scottish king acceded to the English crown, and finally the Act of Union, mutually agreed to our mutual benefit. No?

The English have white privilege.

In bucket loads.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007gb93 not available just now but this by Jackie Kay is a good example of how Scottish artists can weave different strands - colonialism and slavery and how complicit different people were - acknowledging that Scotland played a part in all of the above and that Scottish people of colour have a place commenting on that creatively.

Am tired so that might be waffle but it's a good thing to read/listen to

The Scottish independence movement is for civic nationalism where the people of Scotland are the ones who live here and make their home here, regardless of where you grew up or what you look like

Well, that’s the civic nationalism officially espoused by the SNP. In truth there’s plenty of blood and soil nationalism here too.

Such an interesting thread to read!

I'm Scottish and pro Scottish independence, it's really tricky trying to explain what you've asked to English people without sounding a little bit offensive. Obviously the whole country isn't the same and isn't being tarred with the same brush by anyone but the flags have been ruined with football hooligans and white supremacy. If you said "hello I'm English by the way" I wouldn't think you were racist or a hooligan at all and I'd tell you about my lovely English husband but if you wore a top saying English and proud or with a St. George's flag I think I would wonder why

Can't explain the sense of pride I have about being Scottish or why I have it but it's off the charts when I hear bagpipes or see my kids in tartan. I am mixed race though and my dad as dark and different as he was couldn't have felt more welcomed into Scotland

So if Scotland or Wales had been independent countries from the beginning and not part of the Union, would their nationalism still be a good thing?

No, it wouldn't be a good thing - nationalism that's not about self-determination is ethnic nationalism. If you're already independent you don't need a civic nationalist movement because that's already been achieved.

English nationalism = appropriation by the far right.

Scottish nationalism = usually patriotism.

Patriotism is different to nationalism.

And there you have it.

Scottish = good

English = bad

Scottish nationalism = usually patriotism

I don't agree with this. Scottish nationalism isn't at heart about Scotland being better than anywhere else, it's about Scottish people being the best ones to decide about affairs in Scotland, and the Scottish parliament being the right place to make those decisions.

I don't think the key difference is the number of racist thugs, which exist in large numbers in both countries. I think the difference is that in England there isn't really anything else to nationalism because England is already pretty close to self-determination (being governed by the UK government not an English government, but being 90% of the population of the UK). Whereas in Scotland there's a lot more to nationalism - more people are civic nationalists, and civic nationalists dominate the nationalist debate.

I don't think anyone is saying that Ursula. But if you asked people up here, and I suspect down South too, what came to mind when the words 'English nationalism' were mentioned, Tommy Robinson, racist language and thuggery would feature. England seems to be moving in the wrong direction recently. Maybe it's time you all grabbed the steering wheel. A more inclusive, welcoming brand of nationalism. Pride without arrogance. An acceptance that Empire is over and Johnny foreigner has an equal place in the world.

Thanks for the steer.

I'm a Scot living in England with English DH & DS and ancestry from Ireland & Wales. NO nationalism is OK. The SNP can fuck off with their holier-than-thou 'civic nationalism' and 'the people of Scotland' which always slips into 'the Scottish people' when they forget themselves.

But 'Scottish people' doesn't just mean people who were born and bred in Scotland. You may wish the SNP to fuck off, but a lot of Scots do want self-government. Looking at the basket case that is Westminster, who can blame them?

"So if Scotland or Wales had been independent countries from the beginning and not part of the Union, would their nationalism still be a good thing?"

They were independent countries from the beginning!

OP I was wondering this myself only yesterday and I'm a bit dismayed by the number of people on this thread spouting stereotypes about the English.

I'm English and we can't all have been oppressors. Everyone I've managed to trace in my family tree was a servant or came from a pretty poor background. I'm sure there were rich Welsh and Scottish folk making money out of the British Empire too. Added to which we're none of us responsible for the actions of previous generations.

I'm proud to be English and British (my mum is Scottish and I grew up on the Welsh border) and not because I think I'm better than Johnny Foreigner FFS but because we have a rich and varied culture and landscape and I feel connected to it.

oh it goes ever further. A lot of scots nats portray themselves as victims of the 'english' empire. Talking to one the other day who came out with 'you would hate the english to if they had committed a genocide on you' (fuckin what?) And civic nationalism just isnt even a thing. Either you choose to split out of small mindedness or you dont. There is no argument for it improving the economy. Also seen a lot of them recently claiming racism has been eradiated in scotland.

You are quite right, OP.

There is a massive double standard between the respect given to Scottish, Welsh, Irish and even Cornish nationalism and the fear and contempt shown to English nationalism.

This has undoubtedly been a major factor driving the sense of English grievance which resulted in the Leave vote in the referendum.

Also some would have you think not a single scot voted for brexit.

The myth of civic nationalism

vigile.quebec/archives/00-7/nationalisme-yack.html

Who needs political philosophers when we have @Patroclus to just simply declare that Civic Nationalism just isn't a thing and doesn't exist. Thank goodness for that.

I think you'll find the people you're describing are the ethnic nationalists, identified earlier in the thread, who have hitched themselves to the Scots Independence movement. All countries have racist, bigoted, and xenophobic arseholes, including Scotland, but they're in no way representative of, or even a significant part of the wider movement.

How were the welsh treated? The scots joined the union because their own colonisation attempts went balls up and the english agreed to pay it off. Nothing to do with military takeover.

Yeah not sure you need political philosphers if you cant even get through a full comment.

,I think a pp hit the nail on the head. Modern Scottish nationalism is inclusive whereas stereotypical English nationalism is exclusive.

As I said, if that's your impression of Nationalists in Scotland, you're clearly spending a lot of time listening to xenophobes, racists, and bigots, and not actually interacting with the perfectly ordinary people who make up the vast majority of folk who are minded towards Indi.

I'm not sure who on earth you've been listening to who has been claiming racism has been eradicated in Scotland. That's certainly not a claim I've heard being made by anyone, never mind their views on Indi.

In fact, who are these people you've been listening to? Claims of English genocides are clearly nonsensical, and as for Brexit, I hear all the time people reiterating that Scots voted 62% to remain. That's pretty convincing as it is. I've yet to hear anyone claiming that next to nobody voted for it as the real figure is pretty telling anyway.