Is Scottish nationalism okay but English Nationalism isn't?

[Missangrypants]

That really. Why is the phrase 'English nationalism" mentioned with scorn but "Scottish or Welsh nationalism isn't? Should English nationalism always be a byword for racism?

By the way I'm a BAME person and usually define myself as British rather than English even though born in England.

I used to live in a place where a lot of jewish people had moved to because of a school in the area. Some of the local non-jewish White English would put England flags on the eruv and outside their house (and complain to the local paper about Jews moving in and raising house prices and having funny supermarkets). It was threatening in a way that a Scottish flag in Scotland would not be. Many if not most of the Jews had been English for generations but they knew the flag was to show them they were not welcome.

I suppose it’s ultimately because so many in the far right have appropriated English flags and nationalism.

*SuperLoudPoppingAction

I haven't personally experienced Scottish independence campaigners as using xenophobic arguments.*

The irony of your post is astounding.

@Patroclus it’s funny that you only seem to meet really crazy Scottish nationalists who back up your own view of them. Isn’t it?

The Scottish National Party is commonly seen as the nationalist party in Scotland (although it's only one of a number who have a stated policy aim of Scottish independence). The official party policies are left of centre and have, for some time, actively not focussed on exclusive or supremacist arguments for self-determination (focussing more on practical arguments and the gaping chasm in voting records between English and Scottish constituencies in UK elections and referenda!). They have firmly branded themselves as a progressive party and shed their "Tartan Tory" history (although it is widely known they are a broad church with some old school nasty Nationalists among them). There are of course also Scottish Nationalists of the nasty kind too (there is a fascist Scottish Defence League much like the EDL).

So really the premise of the OP's question presents a false equivelance. The difference isn't because of the countries, it is that the term Nationalism has different meanings in different contexts. Much like the National Socialist Workers Party in Germany in the 30's weren't really socialists...

To actually answer the OP-

English nationalism is perfectly ok. At least, it should be perfectly ok to celebrate Englishness. Sadly, most of the common means for doing that, flags, football shirts, etc etc have from time to time been hijacked by xenophobes and bigots, so unfortunately English nationalism now carries connotations by association, making it more difficult for genuinely proud English people to celebrate their nationality. It's a disgrace, but hopefully in time it'll be detoxified.

I wonder as well if sometimes we just don't describe the warm, fuzzy side of "English Nationalism" as such (if as I understand it, you're equating nationalism to "pride in being English") because it's all around us. An everyday part of life in the UK: it seems the English (rightly) often celebrate their great food and drink, sporting achievements, writing, art, music etc... There is so much that is celebrated as uniquely English. I'd be proud to be English in those contexts.

All nationalisms are bad news if you ask me, because they often turn into exclusionary politics, being proud of your identity and heritage within the context of a multicultural state, great!

wanting your own identity (and your own understanding of what that means, too) to shape public life to the exclusion of those who you deem not to share that identity, recipe for disaster and, at worst, civil war!

What missperegrinespeculiar said. 100%

Every time BNP/UKIP speak up about anything I die of shame. Shame that to feel good about ourselves we need to denigrate others.

@chickenyhead

Well that's just the thing. It's perfectly possible to feel good about yourself, celebrate your identity, and want the best possible state of affairs for yourself, without having to simultaneously 'other' people, hate non-nationals, or do other nations down, wish harm upon them, and blame them for all that is wrong with the world.

The former does not necessitate the latter, and nor is the latter an inevitable consequence of the former.

It's why the charge of being 'England haters' often flung at Scots nationalists is so risible. It's perfectly possible to want the best possible in all respects for both Scotland and England, and both Scottish and English people, but fundamentally disagree on what is actually 'best possible' for each.

I totally understand how you feel about BNP/UKIP, because every time I see the idiots in the SDL making fools of themselves yet again, or the couple of clowns who walk around with their 'England, get out of Scotland' banner I feel exactly the same. They're the small cadre of morons who hitch themselves to Indi and set the whole thing back by their presence, but they're not representative of me, not representative of the wider movement, and they're certainly not going to shame me into hiding my Scottishness or openly admitting I'm a firm advocate of Independence.

There's nothing about Independence or Scots nationalism that requires anyone in Scotland to act, think, or talk like a bigot at all, so there's certainly no need to be ashamed of it, and nor is there any basis for ridiculous claims that all Scots nationalists are divisive, xenophobic bigots by nature. It's certainly not true of all English folk, irrespective of what the BNP/UKIP/EDL clowns get up to.

Thanks everyone for your views so far on this. Some I agreed with and others I did.

I feel that these ideas of what is good or bad nationalism, patriotism, etc. and the use of these terms as shorthand for a perceived set of good or bad values, without providing clarity or context, can and often does facilitate alienation. This of course increases the drift towards nationalism whether good or bad and the cycle continues.

Should read '..... some I agreed with and others I didn't'.

In my experience some Scottish people can be extremely nationalist and jingoistic to the point of it being xenophobic.

Fil and his friends for example, when they come to stay, say some horrible things about the English. They have huge chips on their shoulder for some bizarre reason.

I used to live in Glasgow. The local pub had a cartoon on the wall called "The English Git". A housemate had a picture captioned "Take out the Englishman and bring in the dog" (in Gaelic). There was anti-English graffiti around town. Lots of stuff like that. This was the 90s, before the Internet really got going, but "just bantz lol" was the attitude to at

Maybe it's changed. I left: won't be returning.

"Civic nationalism" my posterior.

Scottish nationalism is generally less problematic than English nationalism because it tends to be closely tied to political ideologies such as a desire for independence or home rule, rather than to any sense of intrinsic national superiority.

Scottish nationalism also tends to be inclusive - the idea that anyone who comes to live in Scotland can and and should be considered Scottish - whereas English nationalism tends to be exclusive, and is based in the idea that one must be 'ethnically' English. The former is civic nationalism, the latter ethnic nationalism.

I find this distinction helpful to an extent, but I think there is a tendency to excuse all Scottish nationalism as being benign when it isn't. Something that I found hugely frustrating during the debate on Scottish independence was the tendency of Scottish nationalists to ally Scotland on the side of the oppressed rather than the oppressor when discussing issues such as slavery or British imperialism. Scotland actively participated in and benefited from the slave trade and imperial expansion, so attempts to paint Scotland as a country colonised by the rest of the UK infuriated me. In addition, Scotland has its fair share of Blood and Soil nationalists.

But I do generally accept that Scottish nationalism is more to do with self-determination, culture, art and sociology than it is to do with ideas of ethnic superiority and exclusionism. All nationalism makes me uncomfortable to a greater or lesser extent, but not all forms are equally problematic.

Imagine trying to tell any other race that they're imagining the shit they have to hear and read......

How were the welsh supposedly treated? still not heard back about that?

zsazsajuju Not sure where i said they're the only nationalists I encounter? can you point it out?

The Welsh had their language and culture oppressed by the English and it has been preserved and revived - excellent. "Twll din bob sais" (all English are arseholes) - not so great. Being still called a colonist when you have learned the language and lived here for years (your ancestors having been Irish anyway) - bad.

Giving Wales more control over its own affais -good. The family of a nurse from the Phillipines being bullied off a council estate because they aren't Cymraeg - bad.

Weve had this 'welsh cultural repression' myth on here before. We established it was based on 200 year old events of English being taught in schools and the welsh Women's Institute choosing to speak English.....Absurd.

Well there was a Welsh Not in schools with children being punished for speaking Welsh. I guess many of the "owners of the means of production" were English which is incidental but has resulted in all the English as being seen as oppressive. In fact a majority of English people were working in mines and mills at the time. Power became centralised in England and it was felt that Welsh interests were overlooked. So in Wales and Scotland nationalism has become conflated with fighting for civic rights. That doesn't mean that those countries haven't got their share of bigotted nationalists. I have no time at all for flag wavers personally,. Keep it at rugby matches.

I know that my Nan was hit in school (born in the 1920’s) for speaking welsh despite the fact she couldn’t speak English beyond a few extremely basic phrases.

I also know that when speaking welsh in Cardiff she was called a foreigner (in the 50’s or early 60’s) by a man she believed to be English.
My uncle (in the 1980’s) had shit put through the letterbox of his home for living near London temporarily for work. The local English took exception to a Welshman living on “their” street. Cymruphobia is a thing and has been in the media as well.

I don’t believe in so called “myths”, I believe what my family tell me. Conversely none of my family are anti English especially as people born in England or with English heritage marry into the family and join the family without issue. My own dad was born in Nottingham to Irish parents, My young DD’s father was born and raised in Oxfordshire and I do teach her about her heritage, English, Welsh and Irish via my fathers parents.

A lot of people I know (and myself) are heartbroken because of the damage done to our country which relied heavily on coal exports. Thatcher removed the industry we relied heavily on and left nothing behind, things could’ve been done to relocate people or create a new industry, things could still be done to help the people here. But no we’ve been left with nothing to the point where a lot of the “valleys” (aka Rhondda Cynon taff) are small ghost towns with more empty houses than we know what to do with. I hear similarly from the northern English as well to be fair. Kind of off point but I and many others would welcome English people (or Spanish, or African, or bright green Martians) moving here if they were doing up the houses and contributing to the community. Unsurprisingly I never see anyone doing so. We aren’t a city, no high employment, We aren’t a coastal town so no real scope for “second homes” either.

Westminster has never given a shit about us but the laws made up in Westminster to this day are the ones that haunt us and our damaged economy, higher poverty levels, higher rates of depression, lower life expectancy and some of the worst educational outcomes in the country.
With the above said I’m acutely aware that your average 35 year old moving here with a Mrs and a few kids have nothing to do with the above.

(Link: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/15/anti-welsh-bigotry-eddie-jones-england-brexit)

Hope that made it “clicky” But here is an example of several forms of cymruphobia (and some interesting info on anti English and anti welsh sentiments).

The link wouldn't work for me.

Scottish nationalism isn't ever xenophobic? 😂

All nationalism is shite, ethno-nationalism especially so

Many if not most of the Jews had been English for generations but they knew the flag was to show them they were not welcome.

The Jewish residents could display the English flag themselves and reclaim it - what with them being English as you say.

Still some depressing generalisations here about "the English" without much evidence to back it up beyond anecedotes. England has a population of 55 million - we're not all the same.