To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

What is the point of checking ID in Dover when people can just come in via ROI then NI then Scotland?

Jeez for the n th time, ID cards are about knowing who someone is, when checked, say at a place of work or when stopped for an unrelated issue, perhaps a broken stop light.

We already run extensive passport checks at Dover.... but we do not record who is checked either way,
In regard to NI, the problem isn't the GFA, it is the CTA... the ROI/NI border post brexit is about goods.

The CTA will still exist and as the border is completely porous, the issue you raise will still be there.

So if the issue is goods not people then whet is the issue with having a border in the sea? Yesterday everyone was up in arms at me because why should people from NI have to show passports when travelling to England etc etc but if it's about goods then people wouldn't have to show ID would they?

So, in that case, what's the issue with a border in the sea?

So, in that case, what's the issue with a border in the sea?

And how are you going to sell that to NI unionists for whom it is symbolically against everything they’ve ever stood for?

There isn't for me.

However, symbolically, it will be a border that separates off NI from UK so it will infuriate the loyalists and remember it was loyalist attacks on Catholics that triggered the latest "troubles" in 1968.

Time travel mode..... it was what the EU wanted - but May didn't and insisted on a UK wide back stop.

Now BJ has thrown away any semblance of majority, it doesn't matter and he could suggest this to the EU but rumour has it, he has not at all.

However, symbolically, it will be a border that separates off NI from UK so it will infuriate the loyalists and remember it was loyalist attacks on Catholics that triggered the latest "troubles" in 1968.

But for goods not people right?

Well, as i read it, yes, goods because of the CTA making checks pointless.

BUT as i said, it is, to the loyalists unacceptable.

Maybe it isn't ? ask Nigel Dodds or Ms Foster.

Loyalists consider themselves British. Some won’t want any barrier between themselves and GB, even if it’s trade not people. Any barrier with GB could make NI seem more aligned with ROI, which is what they wouldn’t want.

DUP have explicitly said they are against a border in the sea AFAIK

To be clear, I believe a sea border is the most sensible of the options.

But it involves throwing NI unionists under the bus. So how you sell this solution to them is crucial. Any ideas?

But for goods not people right?

It’s still a border. Checkpoints, declarations, hassle.

How would it make you feel as a unionist to have to do this every time you went to the ‘mainland’ (lol) of your own country, whereas nationalists flit back and forth to the republic no bother?

Would you see this as an enormous threat to your position? You betcha.

Thinking about it, I’m starting to see how it would feel like a United Ireland has happened already.

How would it make you feel as a unionist to have to do this every time you went to the ‘mainland’

Why would people have to if it only refers to goods?

Ref the border in the Irish Sea, I think people are missing the point that Northern Ireland itself would have to remain in the Customs Union (and probably aligned with the Single Market) while the rest of the U.K. left. This is no doubt why it is such anathema to Unionists (and why Theresa May persuaded the EU to make the backstop all U.K.).

Also all this detailed technical discussion about whether or not the U.K. can control its own borders in the EU or outside of it, is rather missing the primary benefit of EU membership which is uninterrupted trade.

This has been such an interesting thread and in all honesty it has been refreshing to see mostly civilised responses on what is clearly an emotive topic. It usually ends up with mud slinging from both sides.

I voted remain 2 years ago and in fairness the upset I felt when the result came through surprised even me.... I was devastated (I was also in very, very early stages of pregnancy so it equally could have been hormones too). Rven when I went to the polls I was dithering which side of the fence I would go and I had heard reasonable arguments for and against from intelligent people giving both sides of the argument. In the end, I guess what won me round for remain was that I believed (still believe in fact) that anything that was thought of a good idea by Farage, Johnson and Gove was automatically I bad idea and that as a nation and individual we get more benefits from being in the EU than from out of it (the worlds best travel and work Visa, emergency healthcare free at point of delivery with a EHIC, a generous trading block, no additional data roaming and basic human right/womens rights/maternity rights/working hours protection). Don't get me wrong, the EU is not perfect but again, I'm still of the belief that the world around us is changing, not necessarily for the better and I'd rather be part of the EU and change it from within than have it against us.

I didn't realise how much I'd maybe taken all this for granted until the leave verdict came through the next day and I'll admit....I was quite vocal about it (I have calmed down since). Luckily, I haven't lost any friendships but in fairness the people who I did have a few wobbles with...we've kind of unspokenly agreed not to discuss it, they know my feelings, I know theirs.... it's really not worth it; our feelings are generally we need to work through this now together, not against each other.

What is kind of worrying me though, reading through this thread is the amount of remainers, now so fed up of the whole situation that they would voted to leave. Can I ask politely how you feel that would solve anything now? I am honestly interested. Remainers should own their vote and responsibility as much as any leaver.... and that includes our side of the current mess we're in right now!

Leavers, it is sad that you feel you can't speak about your vote without chastised for it, but that does work both ways. I equally don't want to be labelled a snowflake any more than you want to be labelled thick or racist. I am a lefty and quite proud of my values, this doesn't make me weak or an advocado munching hippy. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I do slot in to the remain stereotype but I did my research just as much and as well as any leave voter protests they do too! Looking back, how any of us were meant to make such an important decision based of the information we were given is beyond me.

I feel now that things have changed enough, and so much more information has come to light that a second referendum should be done. I firmly stand by my remain vote and will continue to do so

To those PP banging on about replacing trade with Europe with developing economies, India, China, US etc, I say two things:

1. Proximity matters hugely, especially for perishable food imports like fresh meat, veg etc and just-in-time supply chains. No country more distant than Europe is going to be able to cost-effectively replace trade with near neighbours

1. It's not only economic growth that matters, but market size. Of the world's 30 or so largest economies, all but a handful are in the EU. And the exceptions? See point 1.

@GlitterDustFairy

What is kind of worrying me though, reading through this thread is the amount of remainers, now so fed up of the whole situation that they would voted to leave. Can I ask politely how you feel that would solve anything now? I am honestly interested. Remainers should own their vote and responsibility as much as any leaver.... and that includes our side of the current mess we're in right now!

Can you explain what you mean? Struggling to understand what you’re getting at?

Agree with @lifesnotaspectatorsport and surely with the climate crisis everyone understands that it is way greener to not transport things across the world as a matter of course and makes so much sense to trade with our closest partners? (Kind of easy to imagine the Venn diagram of brexiteers and climate change deniers though)

@cyberworrier

"Can you explain what you mean? Struggling to understand what you’re getting at?"

Sorry, probably not making it as clear as it could be.
A few posters up thread who initially voted remain have now said they would vote leave if it came to a second referendum (some, not all). I just wondered what their reasoning would be for that given the current shit show. In my echo chambers I have heard of leavers now wishing they had voted remain but not remainers now wanting to vote leave. I just wondered why

Swapping trade partners who live next door to you for those thousands of miles away makes no sense whatsoever, on any level, to anyone.

Why would you do that?

Plus China, India and so on aren’t going to just give us trade. They’ll want visas thrown in as part of it (oh the irony).

How’s our trade deal with Putin going btw?

@GlitterDustFairy thanks for explaining, I wondered if that’s what you meant but I have to say I haven’t really encountered what you’re saying eg people saying they’d now vote leave (I have RTFT but if posters said this I must have not noticed and in real life have NEVER encountered someone switching from remain to leave, a fair amount of the opposite though!)

They absolutely have. That is a main point of the Remainers argument. That the EU doesn't stop the UK from controlling its borders, that's the fault of the UK government. Only now, apparently it isn't.

It isn't the main point of the Remainers argument. The point that has been made is that the UK has had powers to remove EU nationals not resident under EU law that we haven't used. That is not the same as what you are saying here.

Also, you were very naïve in your hopes about Northern Ireland, I must say.

Glitter, the problem is your talking about workers rights etc when it's the UK who has led on much of that, we are leading world democracy (well we used to be) 'we help to introduce and lead on this.

But your not thinking of the flip side of what has happened due to open borders.

Sex slavery has become phenomenon... Gun running... The guns used at battaclan, the eu were warned about dangers years before and did nothing... Drugs, gangs, vulnerable people in slavery...
All flourishing under eu.

So it rings hollow to trot all that eu propaganda new speak out when the Grim Grim reality is humans being trafficked all over, put to work on farms living in shitty caravans.

It's awful!!

The ehic thing is a farce, I had my elderly disabled df calling me in a panic that he had knocked himself and was bleeding out and hospital wouldn't treat him without insurance number (heart issues on warfrin)

In France dd fell, banged head, vomiting... We had ambulance for hospital but interviewed and all details taken first before exam and treatment!! Bill came through post after...

I ve explained to you before about trafficking and sex trade, its down to national govts law enforcement or lack of, not the EU.
IRA Terrorists long before FOM got weapons didn't they? as did ETA and many others.

Regarding ehic.. i have used my ehic card several times as have friends with zero problems at all.
In fact my DD is in Malta right now and went to a Doctor with food poison yesterday, showed her ehic, all good.

Obv if you can't show your ehic.....

...so i think you are just making stuff up now, not least because they wouldn't send you a bill in the post but would ask for CC first.

Funnily enough it was Malta where df had issues.

I'm explaining it back to you jas. I did link to very detailed article from da speigal maybe you didn't have time to read it?

Very weazley to try and wriggle out of everything that's occurred because this project was splurged over the eu without any thought to worse case scenarios and measures to put in place before... Letting all hell break loose.