To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

So basically the UK cannot control immigration, even as permitted by the EU because of the GFA?

Even if the EU and the GFA didn't exist, it would still be very difficult to stop people moving across a wiggly land border that goes down the middle of roads and through people's houses.

It's just not a natural border and hasn't been treated as one for years.

DecomposingComposers Sat 07-Sep-19 10:53:44
EU nationals have an initial right to enter and to reside, but within max 6 months they are supposed to be a qualified person under EU law or the dep of one.

Can you explain how this is monitored then?

It was never monitored due to complete incompetence on the part of the UK.

Same as kippers. Our problem. As in everything, it is just easier for Leavers to blame others than actually do anything about incompetence.

Most people on benefits will say that they can't save much.

But if you were living in the UK, in receipt of benefit, working cash in hand jobs and receiving child related benefits too but we're only paying for 1 adult to live here in an HMO then you could afford to send money home where it is potentially worth more than here.

Even if the EU and the GFA didn't exist, it would still be very difficult to stop people moving across a wiggly land border that goes down the middle of roads and through people's houses.

But explain to me how we could implement border controls in line with EU regulations if it is the fault of the UK government and not the EU.

But if you were living in the UK, in receipt of benefit, working cash in hand jobs and receiving child related benefits too but we're only paying for 1 adult to live here in an HMO then you could afford to send money home where it is potentially worth more than here.

That's a very lurid imagining.

Sure, there will be a few people who do this. But it is a TINY minority. Do people really have to trot out ad nauseam the facts about just how few EU nationals abuse the welfare system?

We do not have an ID card system and have chosen not to record who comes and goes, anyone can be any body.

The black economy has never been cracked down upon, we don't have the police or immigration officers to do so.

None of this is the EUs fault and none of this will change post brexit.

Sure, there will be a few people who do this. But it is a TINY minority. Do people really have to trot out ad nauseam the facts about just how few EU nationals abuse the welfare system?

Is it? My DH has a job where he has to go into customers houses. In one area of London he is repeatedly going into houses that have been divided into multiple dwellings. Within each room are multiple beds. He's even gone to sheds being used as dwellings. He's spoken to many of the occupants of theses houses who happily reveal that this is exactly what they are doing. It clearly isn't the majority but it isn't a tiny problem either.

We do not have an ID card system and have chosen not to record who comes and goes, anyone can be any body.

Imagine we cancel Brexit tomorrow. Explain to me how the UK government can change the system, in line with EU regulations?

Well, ID cards for starters, change the benefits system to a contributory one (why should someone who has worked for 30 years get the same JSA as someone who has worked for a week?)

Record who comes in and out of the UK, if only so we have accurate numbers, do not inc transit passengers at airports or students at recognised universities.

We should do this regardless of brexit.

@DecomposingComposers

We could put a secured border between Scotland and England.. and another secured border between Wales and England.

That would make sure that if any illegal immigrants try to get into the Uk via Holyhead or Cairnryan they won’t be able to.

Would that sound ok to you?

Or what do you suggest?

jasjas1973

But so many posters on here said that we cannot have ID cards, nor record border crossings, because they breech the GFA.

So, the truth is that it isn't the fault if our government it's because we share a border with an EU country and the particular political situation there prevents us from securing the border. Is that correct?

@jasjas1973

*Record who comes in and out of the UK, if only so we have accurate numbers, do not inc transit passengers at airports or students at recognised universities.

We should do this regardless of brexit.*

How would you do this in line with the GFA?
Where would your ID checks be carried out? Bearing in mind Uk citizens are in and out to Ireland all day long

So, the truth is that it isn't the fault if our government it's because we share a border with an EU country and the particular political situation there prevents us from securing the border. Is that correct?

No. the particular political situation IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY prevents you from securing the border with that EU country. There was no civil war in the Republic of Ireland.

No. the particular political situation IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY prevents you from securing the border with that EU country. There was no civil war in the Republic of Ireland.

Oh I see. So we should unite Ireland then? How long until you are rounded on.

@DecomposingComposers

So, the truth is that it isn't the fault if our government it's because we share a border with an EU country and the particular political situation there prevents us from securing the border. Is that correct

You still arent really getting it

Your government helped formulate and signed a peace treaty so yes your government is responsible for it and for honouring it. The problem is the younger politicians shamefully forgot that.

The political situation isn’t in the EU country with which you share a border. The political situation is in your OWN COUNTRY.

The civil war known as ‘The troubles’ were in a part of the UK...not in any other EU country.

To end that civil war ( which was costing the UK lives , money and resources )your government agreed a peace treaty which means that region has multi identity.

@DecomposingComposers

Oh I see. So we should unite Ireland then

Haven’t you read anything from earlier posts directed at you?

Do you live in NI?
If not then

YOU CANNOT UNITE IRELAND!!!

Only northern Irish people can. And at the minute the majority don’t want to

Oh I am very much getting it.

Remainers argue that us not securing our borders isn't down to EU but the UK government, except that the UK government can't do anything about it because of the GFA.

The CTA and the nature of the border makes checks in NI impossible under any system doesn't it?

But that does not mean we should then wash our hands of checking who is here illegally or not recording numbers at all the other major points of entry.

blubberyboo

It wasn't me saying that be should. Calm down.

I was asking the question on response to Pallisers post.

Note the? after the sentence.

Take issue with Pallisers, not me.

So, the truth is that it isn't the fault if our government it's because we share a border with an EU country and the particular political situation there prevents us from securing the border. Is that correct?

It is the fault of the UK government because that issue was always there.
It's their fault they never realised it or never explained to voters. Even the Remain campaign seemed blissfully unaware or didn't make it clear enough.
There is no solution that keeps the status quo and removes the UK from the EU without it entering Schengen space.
The backstop is not a solution, it's a mirage to keep people happy, IMO.

But that does not mean we should then wash our hands of checking who is here illegally or not recording numbers at all the other major points of entry.

But what is the point of checks at other entry points if you have a wide open border elsewhere?

Kind of like making sure your windows and back door are locked and alarmed but leaving your front door wide open and wondering how you got burgled.

Lweji

But I'm saying now if we cancel Brexit how do we do what Remainers insist that we have always been able to do - control our borders and control immigration. But the truth is that we can't.

@decomposing

But pallisers didn’t suggest united ireland anywhere in her post. That was you

@jasjas1973

What is the point of checking ID in Dover when people can just come in via ROI then NI then Scotland?

But that does not mean we should then wash our hands of checking who is here illegally or not recording numbers at all the other major points of entry.

Sure. If you want to have hole in your ship, but reinforce the bits without holes and keep taking water out with a small bucket.

The problem is that Brexit was very much for border control. Not possible, then. Simple as that.
Plus increasing population control to spot illegal immigrants, therefore infringing on national's rights and possibly introducing things like ID cards that are not popular.

Adding the need to negotiate trade deals with hundreds of countries all over again, which will take years at best.

But pallisers didn’t suggest united ireland anywhere in her post. That was you

Where did I suggest doing it? I most certainly didn't. I asked a question.