To tell you why I voted to leave

[readingreadingreading]

I'm not brave enough to say this IRL and that is part of the problem.

I refuse to believe that I, or 52% of the British population are either thick or racist. I also think that such a pessimistic view of our population is leading to more divisions.

I have wanted to leave the EU since the Maastricht treaty was signed (I even sent off for a copy of it). I always said I'd campaign to leave as soon as I got the chance. I didn't campaign as it would have meant aligning with groups such as Farage which I do think are racist. But I still chose to vote leave.

I think the EU are getting too big and have always been too bureaucratic. The countries aligned to it are too varied for a common purpose to be right for everyone.

I don't know if we have an immigration problem or not. If we do we need to be able to restrict the number of nationals of other European countries moving here. If we don't we should be a lot more welcoming to people from other parts of the world, people who really need asylum. The current situation has desperate people turned away at borders and highly skilled workers having to jump through hoops for a job where they are wanted and needed.

No of course I didn't believe there would be extra money for the NHS. However I think currently we give money to the EU and we get money back whereas giving the same money directly to British needs would be a better use of it. Not to mention the savings from all the extra MPs.

I'm old enough to remember life before the EU. We managed to travel to Europe, live and work in different countries, eat food and not go to war. I'm reasonably sure we can continue to do so without them.

I don't think the EU can last much longer and I thought (wrongly) that coming out now in an orderly fashion would be better that having it all crash down around us. I'm nervous of new laws being enacted that we have no veto on and drifting into closer integration.

I hate to watch the current mess and no, this isn't what I voted for. But if we can't get out there shouldn't have been a vote and I don't think everything can be blamed on the leavers.

Haven't RTFT OP but just wanted to thank you for an eloquent and interesting post without the usual vitriol of immigration and taking back control. I'm a strong remainer but am grateful to you to putting your head above the parapet.

How can you let people enter without record and rely on them self reporting?

How do you think it would be easier to track people after Brexit?

How do you think it would be easier to track people after Brexit?

We will be able to initiate whatever border control we want won't we? When I travel to the US I have to give the address of where I will be staying and my entrance and departure are tracked. Let's do that.

When I travel to the US I have to give the address of where I will be staying and my entrance and departure are tracked.

Even if it were practical to have US style immigration control between the EU and the UK (how would that work at the NI border?) plenty of people overstay their Visas in the US.

Even if it were practical to have US style immigration control between the EU and the UK (how would that work at the NI border?) plenty of people overstay their Visas in the US.

People do.overstay in the US but if they are caught they are deported and not allowed to return. We are an island so it should be much easier to control immigration.

As regards the NI border why is it a problem? You are saying that being in the EU isn't the issue. The issue is with the UK government not having stricter immigration laws so what does the NI border have to do with anything? We implement whatever immigration laws are permitted by the EU.

They still needed private health insurance to count as a qualified person under EU law decomposing. Arguments were made that the NHS counted as comprehensive sickness insurance, which personally I thought was correct, but were rejected in court. Its all in the EEA Regulations.

This is also true of self sufficient people but wasn't enforced for them either. You might remember the various stories about EU national SAHPs and carers, being supported by the wages of usually their British partner, often for many years, finding out their residence hadn't actually been legal when applying for documentation after the referendum. That was because they didn't have comprehensive sickness insurance, ie private healthcare.

The EU settlement scheme isn't as strict, but its essentially a mopping up exercise to try and document as many EU nationals family as possible. I should probably point out here that I work in this field so that's why I'm very familiar with what is and isn't legal residence under EU law.

I'm sure the UK could do very well outside the EU. It's the leaving that's the issue.
Like a family going on holiday on a given date but they can't quite agree on where or how to get there or what to do with the family pet. Meanwhile, the holiday starts tomorrow and they have to do it as a group.

They still needed private health insurance to count as a qualified person under EU law decomposing.

Sorry, this is not happening. No EU student that I know has private health insurance. My understanding is that the UK is not allowed to treat an EU citizen any differently to a UK citizen - so how can they insist on private health insurance? Why isn't an EHIC card sufficient?

I know it's not happening! This is my entire point.

EU law sets out certain requirements for freedom of movement to be exercised. And beyond the initial residence period, if you aren't a qualified person under EU law or the dependent of one, you have no right to reside here and can be removed. Well, we have the new EU Settlement scheme now which is less strict but this is what EU law says.

The UK however chose not to check whether people were residing legally or take removal action when they were. This is why a lot of people got a nasty shock after the referendum.

Yes EHIC can potentially count as comprehensive sickness insurance.

Also it's incorrect that the UK can't treat an EU national differently from a UK citizen. That is absolutely wrong. There are loads of ways that we do it. If a newly arrived Polish citizen has a baby here, that baby isn't British. If a newly arrived British citizen has a baby here, it is. An EU national who commits a serious enough criminal offence can be deported. If a solely UK citizen commits the same offence, there's nowhere to deport them to. A British citizen has the right of abode here regardless of what they're doing, an EU national does not.

This argument about FoM is really beside the point, which is that the OP, despite professing not to be thick, and some posters falling over themselves to gush about her being intelligent and having made an informed decision , is still blapping on about 'unlimited immigration' despite all the factual info to the contrary that was available before the ref and despite those posters on here who've provided more factual info to the contrary.

Yes EHIC can potentially count as comprehensive sickness insurance.

Well EHIC isn't private medical insurance. So which is it - they have to have private medical insurance or they can have EHIC?

MerryChristmasHarry

Those are the same for a national of any country. Of course we can't deport a British national - where would you deport them to?

How about benefits - are EU citizens living in the UK treated the same or differently to UK citizens?

As regards the NI border why is it a problem? You are saying that being in the EU isn't the issue. The issue is with the UK government not having stricter immigration laws so what does the NI border have to do with anything? We implement whatever immigration laws are permitted by the EU.

But you’ve just said you’d like strict US style border checks. This would obviously be a problem for people popping to the supermarket in Derry from Donegal / visiting Granny across the border. You can’t expect people in the North of Ireland to go through US style border checks (or any kind FFS) multiple times a day.

I may be missing what you’re trying to say..?

We will be able to initiate whatever border control we want won't we? When I travel to the US I have to give the address of where I will be staying and my entrance and departure are tracked. Let's do that

What a well thought out idea!
The EU will then do exactly the same thing to us, i'm sure brits stuck in 6 hour uk only queues at Palma will thank you for that brain wave.

Pls don't say we can stay in the UK, places like Devon and Cornwall, the Lake district are already full to over capacity.

The wording in the legislation is actually Comprehensive Sickness Insurance decomposing, apologies I should have been clearer about that as it's a complex area. See Regulation 4(d) below:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/1052/made

This blog post is also quite a useful summary of the position under EU law, note it predates full implementation of the EU Settlement Scheme.

www.freemovement.org.uk/comprehensive-sickness-insurance-what-is-it-and-who-needs-it/

Those are the same for a national of any country. Of course we can't deport a British national - where would you deport them to?

Of course. But those were given as examples of why we can and do treat British and EU nationals differently and there's no blanket prohibition on doing so. I don't do benefits law but I think that is one area where it's supposed to be applied the same. The habitual residence test definitely applies to returning Brits too.

We are an island so it should be much easier to control immigration.

People literally have houses that would cross the EU/U.K. border.

Yes, have you been to the border between ROI and NI lately decomposing? It was somewhat porous even when there was an actual conflict going on and there were armed checkpoints aimed at monitoring everything and everyone. It's got rather more so since then.

The wording in the legislation is actually Comprehensive Sickness Insurance decomposing, apologies I should have been clearer about that as it's a complex area.

Yes I think you should have been clearer. Otherwise it looks like you were trying to manipulate the argument to make the EU legislation look like it is stricter than it really is.

@Cyberworrier

I'm just trying to work out what exactly the UK government aren't doing that they could be doing under EU law.

People literally have houses that would cross the EU/U.K. border.

What on the mainland? How so?

I don't do benefits law but I think that is one area where it's supposed to be applied the same.

Precisely. And I think that's where a lot of the resentment stems from, particularly when people are abusing it by claiming benefits here but then sending them back to family at home.

How can the UK prevent that? The only way is to reduce benefits available to UK citizens so that by default benefits to EU citizens are reduced and that isn't right either.

Why can't the EU change the rules so that benefits need to be paid by the country of origin?

They might be able to, I don't know. Although the issue might be less pertinent if the UK used the rights it unquestionably has and removed EU nationals who don't have the right to reside.

The big difference between the UK and a lot of countries in the EU is that our benefit system is mostly income not contributions based.

www.irishcentral.com/news/brexit-border-northern-ireland

Are you imagining US style border checks between NI and the rest of the UK?

So how can they remove people who don't have the right to reside if they don't know who they are or where they are because they can't do checks because it will vlog up borders plus people can enter the UK from the EU across the Irish border with impunity and then access the mainland from I because we cannot check at either point because of the GFA? So basically the UK cannot control immigration, even as permitted by the EU because of the GFA?

And I think that's where a lot of the resentment stems from, particularly when people are abusing it by claiming benefits here but then sending them back to family at home.

What kind of benefits?
Most people on benefits will say that they can't save much.

Unless they are also working without paying taxes. But that's just as much a problem with nationals.
And with millionaires using legal loopholes.

The thing is that immigrants are the weakest link and the easier target for finger pointing.
As if the UK's issues were solved by removing immigration (note that nobody ever mentioned cutting emigration, which is fine, obviously).