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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think Angel was a bit of a skeaze?

255 replies

herculepoirot2 · 03/09/2019 15:20

Am frittering away my afternoon re-watching Buffy, which I used to love. And as I’m watching, I’m realising that I am seeing a man who is 250 years old climbing in the window of a 16 year old girl in the middle of the night, and I’m thinking that’s pretty grim. She has teddy bears on her bed.

OP posts:
sueelleker · 03/09/2019 16:40

"As ensouled vamps:
Spike is still funnier."
And those cheekbones!

RainbowAlicorn · 03/09/2019 16:40

Sorry I still love Buffy, I am a another Spike girl, always loved Spike. It was Giles before Spike came into it, but then he was a close second to Spike.

geekone · 03/09/2019 16:42

You all need to listen to podcasts

“Still Pretty” and “Still Dead” proper feminist POV.

@nespressowoo I agree but season 5 was brilliant.

Also Connor essentially slept with his “mum” in Cordy what’s with that 🤮

Ilikecheeselotsandlots · 03/09/2019 16:42

I liked Angel, had a life size cardboard cut out of him, as i got older i never saw the attraction with spike (hes beautiful so im not sure why) but for anyone who watched the Angel series Doyle was my favourite and so so beautiful. I balled my eyes out when he died (in the show and in real life).

Soubriquet · 03/09/2019 16:43

Spike is fab Grin

As I kid I loved Angel. As an adult, Spike forever.

I still love the scene in Angel, where he is turned into a puppet and Spike antagonises him to a fight
GrinGrin

geekone · 03/09/2019 16:43

Also watched it millions of times and still love Buffy!!!

Juells · 03/09/2019 16:43

Ha ha is anyone else getting ads "Your angel has a message for you" ?

SnowWhitesRestingBitchFace · 03/09/2019 16:43

Loved Spikes humour but it was Angel for me all day long 😍

KatherineJaneway · 03/09/2019 16:47

Didn't get David B as sexy until he got a bit older, perfect in Bones.

I always preferred Spike. Much more interesting character.

Cassilis · 03/09/2019 16:52

I always have to change the channel on Ross and Rachel scenes. Stomach turning.

OMGshefoundmeout · 03/09/2019 16:52

I think part of the enduring appeal of Buffy is the complexity of the characters. No one is wholly good or wholly bad. The supposed heroes can be selfish and manipulative and the bad guys often act with honour and integrity. Not many shows have the courage to depict people with these levels of ambiguity.

And I agree that although Angel had been on earth 250 years he isn’t 250 years old. He stopped aging the day he became a vampire. There’s a quote about soldiers who die young that ‘they do not grow old as we who are left grow old’ and that’s true of all the dead and in this case it clearly includes the undead.

Lweji · 03/09/2019 16:53

Ha ha is anyone else getting ads "Your angel has a message for you" ?

No, I'm getting a "Live your Summer", but I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the Summers. Grin

Cassilis · 03/09/2019 16:53

He didn’t really stop ageing, his body just doesn’t show the signs of ageing. He still has 250 years of experience.

areyoureadytobestrong · 03/09/2019 16:56

YABU, as my username suggests, watching Buffy is never a frittering away of time!

Icantreachthepretzels · 03/09/2019 17:05

I was so sad when the actor who played Doyle died

Oh my beautiful Doyle - from whom I get my username.

“Still Pretty” and “Still Dead” proper feminist POV.

Still Dead is good (except they don't like my beautiful Doyle for no reason other than they decide they don't like him and rip him to shreds as a misogynist arsehole for any slight misstep whilst swooning over Wesley keeping a woman chained up in a closet) But I had to stop listening to still Pretty because Noelle Lacroix is so woke her brains have fallen out. And her voice is really grating.

Bahlindah · 03/09/2019 17:06

Angel was great in the spin-off (and the spin off itself was great apart from the diabolical 4th season). He was crap in Buffy though.

ChristinaMarlowe · 03/09/2019 17:10

@MillfredTheGreat "True but applying the “half your age plus seven” rule when you’re 250 would probably make it quite hard to get some." Brilliant. 😂 😂I'm not a LOL person but that was funny! Love it 😁

Chocolatehat · 03/09/2019 17:13

Angel was a monster even when he had a soul. Before he was a vampire he was vile.
Spike on the other hand was always a sweetie.

ChristinaMarlowe · 03/09/2019 17:17

I binge watched the lot after I broke my back, love Angel. Love the music and also a huge Joss Whedon fan (Firefly, anyone?) but never got into Buffy or Angel until I was laid up and had seen everything else in our DVD collection. Angel's character is sexy, not David wotsit as he looks like the double of my little brother so not at all appealing but definitely the character is not creepy. He's dead, he has no soul. How anything after that can make him look bad I don't know. He's already pretty bad as options go.
I like Spike. He's a dick but so loveable. I don't do bad boys in real life, in TV I love 'em. Spike all the way Grin

Suplexqueen · 03/09/2019 17:18

Angel was lurking in sewers hating himself until the powers that be asked him to protect her he did his hardest not to even speak to her. She insisted to know who he was. He never pressured her and was incredibly nice to her until he went all murdery and then she killed him and sent him to hell. Also she was much more powerful than him. Willow was an abusing psycho who went on a killing spree with a soul and got away with it just because. Spike saved the world by sacrificing himself. Wolfram and Hart were my favourite and harmony. Never watched the end of angel just couldn't. Did anyone watch la femme Nikita series the old eighties version?

PicsInRed · 03/09/2019 17:23

aintnutinchanged

PicsInRedwhat's up with Ross you seem pretty mad with himand the holiday armadillllo?

Ross encapsulates everything my feminist self detests about 90s sit/romcoms.

I still watch friends and laugh til I cry tears and marvel at the genius of David Schwimmer for creating and moulding Ross until we had the sulky head-tilt-spin artform he'd become by the end. We didn't get it at the time, Ross was supposedly adorable, but I think Schwimmer "did Ross" on purpose. Like a dog-whistle only men could hear. Top shelf, David, bravo! 🎉

Sorry for the derail, OP. Ross would approve though. 🤣

Tldr: love/hate Ross.

Slaymill · 03/09/2019 17:28

I prefer the Angel and Cordy love story from the spin off show. I met David in London and he was not what I expected very sweet and humble in a big soft cuddly sweater.

I also liked the Giles and Fred love story especially when Giles went Grrr all bad. He was hot when he was bad.

A special mention to the Groosalugg I would com-shuck him all day.

Icantreachthepretzels · 03/09/2019 17:31

This is an essay diatribe post I once made on the Buffy boards in response to the question 'Did Angel love Buffy?' (N.B- Bangelfans are crazy there) Sorry for length (I've had to split it in two!)
TLDR: No he didn't.

Chronologically (from what we know from the whole of the 8 seasons of t.v shows (I've never read the comics and cannot class anything where Spike has some kind of space ship as canon) not the order we learn it):
Liam is a selfish, lazy, drunken waste of space who has never been in love but often sweet talks women into bed before abandoning them the next morning ( The Prodigal). He is 26 years old. He stumbles into an alleyway where he inadvertently gets turned into a vampire and becomes the worst vampire that ever walked the earth (even the master calls him 'the most vicious creature I ever knew') and, even though plenty of other vampires are capable of deep and abiding love (Spike and Dru, James and Elizabeth), Angelus - for some reason - is not (Dear Boy).
Then he gets his soul back. He tries to stick with Darla but that doesn't work out (Darla) and so heads to the U.S and spends the bulk of the twentieth century completely alone (Angel). His soul is still pretty new, at this point, he's drawn to doing good deeds - but then being around people is too tempting and painful and he has to push them away (the puppy rescue in Orpheus). By the 40s he has separated himself completely and cut himself off - not helping and not being around humans (why we fight). He's still in this mode in the early 50s, living in the Hyperion, but here he makes his first human connection. Against his will, against his better judgement, he starts to help Judy and she draws him in. He starts to think he has found a friend - he doesn't want to eat her, he is just enjoying having someone to care about and having someone care about him. Which is why it really stings when she turns round and betrays him (Are you Now or Have You Ever Been).
So, having been burned the one time he tried to reach out and connect to someone - he then goes back to avoiding all people. He goes to Elvis' wedding and a few Barry Manilow concerts, has a few drinks with the Ratpack ... but he doesn't connect and he doesn't help. Then comes the night of the armed robbery in the diner - he doesn't ring an ambulance and instead feeds of the cashier. And his guilt comes back in full force - as bad as it was when he was first cursed. He spends the next twenty years homeless and starving as penance - he is at his lowest ebb ... and this is when he first meets Buffy (Becoming)

In Helpless he tells her the story of how he watched her come out of school and walk down the steps and he loved her, because he could see her heart. Except - he couldn't and he didn't - that's just not possible. He starts off his relationship with Buffy by stalking her from a distance. He watches a 15 year old child (bearing in mind he is over 200 and even without that was 26 when he was sired - so...) she's sucking on a lollipop for god's sake. He knows nothing about her (other than she likes lollies) what he sees is the innocence and purity of her youth (doesn't hurt that she happens to be very beautiful as well). She's being called as the slayer - the one girl in all the world to stand against the darkness - so he can infer from that she must be morally pure, as well. Buffy walks down those steps and what Angel sees is someone who is truly good (though he can't possible know that to be fact, it is simply an impression that he is projecting on to her). He 'falls in love' with her perceived goodness - and more than that, he is given hope that if someone who is wholly good can love him back then he is a thing worth saving, he can be redeemed (and remember this is happening at his lowest ebb). He falls in love with the idea of his own redemption - and (in this moment) he ties that up with the person of Buffy.

Angel is not a romantic - though. He is an obsessive. He never loved when he was alive. He never loved Darla as Angelus - though other vampires can and do fall in love. He stayed with her for over 100 years - there was lust and obsession. He was obsessed with Drusilla - but he never loved her. There were other girls he obsessed over and stalked too, one of whom's puppy he nailed to something (Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered). This isn't to say Angel can't love and he can't be romantic - of course he can, but it is not the driving force of his personality - it is not an integral part of him. It is not what motivates him. Obsession is what motivates him.

So, he goes to Sunnydale to wait for Buffy. It's not clear precisely how long there is between Buffy being called and her arriving in Sunnydale - but it's anywhere between a few months and a year. It's a lengthy period of time in which he sets himself up in a home, gets cleaned up - and then has nothing to do but wait for his golden haired redemption to turn up and save him. The man loves to brood - that's a lot of alone time building up images and ideas that don't necessarily bear any relation to reality - but obsessives don't care about that.

Buffy arrives in Sunny D and, they don't ever really bring this up, but he must do some pretty hardcore stalking of her before he meets her in the alley. He knows she's in town - he must know at least roughly where she lives, as he follows her on her way to the Bronze and he knows she'll be going there that night. (in What's My Line he knows about career week because 'he lurks' - perhaps he is already lurking around her school in the pilot, he has at least lurked long enough to know that schoolkids go to The Bronze, even if it's just a lucky guess that Buffy specifically will be there). This isn't a chance meeting and it is a meeting he has had perhaps as long as a year to plan. His chosen method of meeting her is to stalk her down a dark alley. Practically his first words are to lie to her 'truth is I thought you'd be taller, or bigger muscles and all that'. No - he's seen her before, he knew what she looked like, he saw her getting called - he chooses to pretend that this is the first time he has seen her and he was expecting something different, when it isn't and he wasn't. He doesn't tell her his name. He tells her she has to be ready for the Harvest - but gives her no details as to what that is. He doesn't tell her where she can find the vampires even though he knows. He gives her a gift and then walks off into the dark, leaving her all wrong footed by saying 'I didn't say I was your friend' - he has to get the last word in, has to leave her feeling that he is the one with the power. He has had months to plan this. This is not a chance encounter. It's not that he get's caught short and doesn't know what to say. He follows her - gives her a gift - says the word 'harvest' and walks off leaving her feeling silly. That was a deliberate choice he made. He could have told her what the harvest was and saved her a lot of time and effort. If he actually wants to help - isn't that what he should do? He doesn't, he chooses not to. Instead he acts cryptic and mysterious and quite a lot like the way we later see Angelus play mind games . Why? Maybe because, having had a year to decide how best to meet the girl he 'loved from the moment she walked down the steps' he decided mysterious, cryptic guy was more likely to turn a naive, young girl's head than earnest, helpful guy. He leaves her wanting more. That's it for their interactions in episode 1.

In episode 2 they have a brief conversation in the mausoleum in which he actually negs her ('I knew you'd figure it out sooner or later, actually, I thought it was gonna be a little sooner). Angel is apparently quite the PUA. He could have given her this information last night - but instead he thought he'd rather be a bit of a jerk about it in the morning (and no that isn't because he didn't know she would need to go to the mausoleum when they spoke the previous night - he doesn't know they have Jesse until she tells him. He just knew she would come - and he is waiting for her).He tells her his name and that the vampires don't like him and that's pretty much it.

He isn't in episode 3.

In episode 4 he decides to go for another cryptic warning 'he's coming, don't let him corner you. Don't give him a moments mercy - he'll rip your throat out.' Instead of the much more helpful 'there's a vampire with a big fork for a hand who hunts in Weatherly park - be careful when you hunt him, he nearly shredded a homeless guy last night.' He also gives her another gift (I don't want to say Angel is grooming her but ... if the cap fits.) They have another very brief conversation right at the end in which she tries to find out some basic information and he refuses to give a straight answer (sorry - did the PTB send him there to help her, or play mind games?) As he walks off she says 'oh boy' - clearly the mystery guy act is reeling her in, as well a 200 year old serial stalker would know it would. And that's how Angel is acting - not as a romantic hero, because he isn't a romantic - he doesn't know how to do that. He knows how to stalk and how to obsess.

In episode 5 he comes to give her another warning and then gets jealous that she's on a date. Considering they have had precisely 4 conversations at this point, none of which have gone above 30 secs in length, he's skating on pretty thin ice there.

He isn't in episode 6.

And then episode 7 - we learn the truth and get the pronouncements of love. Now - I buy that Buffy could believe she was in love (not that she is - but that she believes it) She's only 16, he's mysterious and older and handsome. She has all these fantasies about him and to her youth and inexperience that qualifies as love. The fact that they have had 5 very short conversations and she knows nothing about him and he knows nothing about her so they can't possibly love each other passes her by completely. As well it might - she is a child. But if Angel - a man who was a fully grown adult when he died and has since lived over 200 years - seen the world and experienced pretty much everything in it- thinks he's in love with a girl he knows next to nothing about, then that is because he does not know the difference between obsession and love. If he is in love, then he is in love with an image of her that he created himself, and what that represents (his redemption) and not with Buffy herself.

They then don't see each other at all until episode 12. They spend no one on one time together even in this episode. After she has her break down and walks out, vowing to quit, he does nothing to check on her - preferring instead to brood alone. Nor does he do anything to try and countermand the prophecy - like insist on going in her place, like Giles. He sits and sulks until Xander turns up and makes him show him where the vampires are. Angel says to her, in the library 'You think I want anything to happen to you? Do you think I could stand it?' but it is Xander and Giles who prove their love for Buffy in this episode by actively taking steps to prevent anything from happening to her - not Angel. And why wouldn't it be? Unlike Angel they have both spent masses of time with her and got to know her as a person - they can honestly claim to love her for who she is. At the end they all go to the dance in a large group... and then Buffy leaves town for THREE MONTHS.

THREE MONTHS LATER - following no contact, Buffy wakes up to find Edward Cullen Angel in her room whilst she sleeps (because obsessive, not romantic). She gives him the brush off because she has PTSD. He fails to understand that she has PTSD and instead worries its something he has done - because he doesn't actually know anything about her and all that introspection is apparently making him a little self involved. They then proceed to dance around whether or not they should date until the end of episode 5, this involves arguments, melodramatic statements, him gripping her rather violently by the shoulders and snarling in her face about fairy tales and the implication that she is too young to know what she wants (which is arguably true - but if he believes that of her, then he has no business feeling like he might want to date her.)

They have their first official date on Halloween. In this episode Angel actually proves how much he doesn't understand Buffy or respect the person she wants to be and he doesn't listen to what she is telling him through her words and actions. Buffy cuts out on their first attempt at a date because she turns up late with straw in her hair, due to slaying, and Cordelia is already there with Angel, embracing personal hygiene. She says to him 'dates are things normal girls have. Girls who have time to think about nail polish and facials. You know what I think about? Ambush tactics, beheading ... not exactly the stuff dreams are made of.' She chooses to dress up as the girliest girl she can possibly be ... that is the normal that she wants to be. That is the normal that she was before she was the slayer (she reiterates this in Helpless when she compares her former self to Spordelia). But instead of accepting this facet of her personality - that she is feminine and likes the accoutrements of femininity and wishes she had more time for it, he asks her why she thinks he'd like her more that way and goes on to say how much he hates women like that (like Cordelia) he calls them 'simpering morons'. He's not interested in who Buffy is or wants to be - he isn't interested in that side of her. And, counter to what he tells her in Helpless - by his own admission here, he would NOT have loved her if she hadn't been the slayer. He's interested in the hero who can redeem him. Not the teenage girl.

To his credit, he does start to make a bit of an effort. In What's my line he takes her ice skating ... but he's known her almost a year, he claims to be in love with her, he is her boyfriend - and he only now finds out that she likes to skate? He does not know Buffy. He knows the slayer.

Icantreachthepretzels · 03/09/2019 17:32

Part 2 - phew!

So the BAngel relationship part one starts on 31st October 1997 and ends about 21st January - so lasts less than 3 months. Even in this period, they don't spend masses of time getting to know each other deeply - he goes behind her back and lies to her face in 'Lie to me', they have a very brief encounter at the blood delivery fight in The Dark Age, they have a real date and he actually learns something about her in What's my Line (yay!) but then he gets kidnapped and they don't see each other at all during part 2 until she saves him in the church. I don't think they actually speak to each other in this episode. In Ted she bandages his injured hand whilst he glazes over and doesn't listen to her talking about Ted. She's being gaslighted and abused by her mom's new boyfriend - no one believes her - and all Angel can say is 'kiss me'. In Bad eggs pretty much all they do is kiss - very lusty but... not proof of love. Then boom he's evil. And yes- the perfect happiness clause - he must love her but ... no. For a long time they act like 'perfect happiness' is a euphemism for orgasm, and even when they know it isn't any old orgasm they still act like it is orgasm with Buffy. But it isn't at all. It just happened that in this instance he achieved perfect happiness following sex with Buffy. The actual perfect happiness was in the moments after - the contentment; one moment when his soul is no longer torturing him, because he is filled with the feeling of being loved and accepted - by someone who is good and pure, so therefore he cannot be a creature of irredeemable evil; there must be good in him if Buffy loves him. It is what I said at the very beginning - he feels Buffy's love has redeemed him, he feels redeemed. That is why his guilty conscience doesn't haunt him for those moments. Which is why he loses his soul.
He's then evil until May. He gets his soul back. Then he goes to hell for a hundred years? three hundred years? A long long time. He comes back at the very end of ep 3. In ep 4 he is like a rabid animal. Yes he remembers Buffy and that he was 'in love' with her - but as I have gone through in painstaking detail, he wasn't in love with her - he was in love with an idea of her and what that meant for his salvation. They did not spend enough time actually getting to know each other to be in love. They then spend until ep 8 with her nursing him back to health. This is actually closer than they've ever been - but they still spend this time being cagey and guarded around each other. She leaves in ep 8 because she still loves him (which she doesn't - but she's 17, she thinks she does and that is fair enough) and because he loves her (he is old enough to know better.) Episode 9 is the wish. and then in Episode 10 Angel is haunted by the first until Buffy proves to be his literal salvation and talks him down from killing himself. They then decide to be together despite all the reasons that were stopping them being together prior to this... I'm not really clear why.

Thus begins the longest period of time they are actually in a romantic relationship. BAngel part 2 lasts from 25th December 1998 to mid May 1999 - a whopping 4 and a half months. Still, this period includes: Angel getting her something she clearly doesn't want for her birthday (because he doesn't know her); him pretending to be evil and macking on Faith which leaves Buffy so freaked out she asks for some space; him not giving her that space and following her on patrol; her trying to read his mind to find out what he is thinking rather than talk to him and her complaining that they never do anything new (he felt that the fire demon best in the cave near the beach was a nice change of pace.) Because they're not actually dating - they're killing demons together and kissing.
In 'Choices', the mayor tells them some hard home truths, which Buffy (naive teenager) chooses to ignore but it does start to play on Angel's mind. This is reinforced by Joyce and he breaks up with her in the sewer. He makes that break up all about how he can't give her what she wants and therefore it's better for him to leave. Now, Angel is free to leave Buffy for any reason of his choosing, if it's about him - but here he is making a decision about what is best for her without consulting her, he is telling her what she will want - not listening to what she does want. As she says sarcastically - of course she hasn't thought about any of it, because she's just some swoony little schoolgirl. This is how he is treating her - and if this is how he sees her a) how can he love her? and b) why does he love her? He tells her what is best for her - he does not treat her as an equal in their relationship. When her humanity - rather than her slayerness - is pointed out to him, he treats her differently and sees her differently, making the choices rather than talking them through as partners and equals. He talks about her needing a normal life - he has never shown any interest in her attempts at a normal life beyond that one time he took her ice skating. She told him at the time he was the one freaky thing in her freaky world that made sense. She isn't interested in dating regular Joe to give her a normal life - she just wants time to go shopping every so often. But he makes the decision for her that 'normal life' has to mean 'normal guy'.
Sure, Buffy tells Willow that she thinks he's right but ... what can she say? she can't stop him from leaving - she can only try to make herself feel better in any way she can, and pretending this really is for the best is how she does that. Agreeing that Angel is right is about protecting her own heart - she's lying to herself to try and make the pain less, she doesn't really believe this. Unless you believe she really never has given any thought to their future - yes, she knew what she wanted and that was Angel. And he just decided for her that she didn't want that.
And as Willow points out - he is a super maxi jerk for doing it just before prom. Buffy's reply is he's over 200 years old, he doesn't get prom. Exactly. He doesn't get Buffy. He doesn't get what is important to her. He doesn't care to. He's just made this huge decision for her about what she wants and needs and doesn't recognise that he is robbing her of something she wants and needs, as he does it. Because he doesn't actually know her as a person. And yes, he turns up at the prom ... but he wouldn't have done if he hadn't bumped into Buffy at the butchers - she mentions the prom and he asks if she's still going to go. She replies 'strictly in a chaperone capacity. But it's fine. I mean the ... I'm cool with going stag. I'm over the whole Buffy gets one perfect high school moment thing.' He thought she wasn't going - he thought she was just going to stay home, and he thought that was OK. He doesn't know her well enough to know how much she craves that perfect normal moment until she tells him. He wouldn't have been there for her if she hadn't said that. Just like he wouldn't have gone to help her in 'Prophecy Girl' if Xander hadn't turned up and forced him.
Then after the prom he disappears for a while - Buffy isn't even sure if he's still in town. He turns up in the Vulcanologist's office - and they argue because he wants to talk and she wants space. He calls her a brat. She's a teenager with a broken heart - his doing - and he calls her a brat because she isn't responding to him the way he wants her to. Because she's being Buffy - the girl, not the slayer.
Once he leaves town, he's free to build his perfect image of Buffy - his redemption and salvation - and put her on a pedestal and obsess about her without the real life girl coming in and wanting to talk about life stuff. It's interesting that every time Buffy turns up in L.A - they argue, like Angel can't cope with the reality of her now he spends all day every day brooding over the fantasy of her. That is - until Darla turns back up and he starts obsessing over nothing but her ...

Canonically - of course Angel loves Buffy, she is the first person he ever loves and he loves her more deeply than he ever will love anyone else. But as a love story - it is unhealthy, has an inappropriate age gap, moves far too quickly and the only real depth is the depth of their blind passion. Buffy is a school girl who gets seduced by a much older man (and in real life we would not be smiling benignly about that!) whilst Angel is a mentally unstable individual with a fixation on a girl who he believes can save him. I mean, it's still a better love story than Twilight but... not by much.
If these were events that actually happened, my assessment would be no that man does not love that girl - he does not know her - he is in limerance and lust and is obsessed with her. It is not healthy enough to be love. And she thinks she's in love here and now- but may well change her mind when she gets older and has seen and experienced more of the world (which is precisely why we have safe guarding). In fact, I think Joan the vampire slayer's response to Randy's pronouncement that he is a vampire with a soul is precisely what an adult Buffy would have thought if Angel had first turned up and tried his mysterious cryptic guy act on her when she was already an adult. Her values - what she is looking for and how she understands love definitely matures as she matures. In 'Lie to Me' she says 'I love you. I don't know if I trust you.' In Seeing Red she says 'I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I don't trust you enough for it to be love.' Adult Buffy may always remain loyal to her memories of Angel, but as her understanding of love evolves, so too must her understanding of the relationship they had - even if she would never admit it to herself.

In the replacement Riley talks about how the slayer gig is a part of who Buffy is and that he gets that and loves every part of her - bad ice skating movie obsession Buffy and slayer Buffy. I think he's right that both the human side of Buffy and the slayer side of Buffy are integral to who she is - her journey in the show is about learning to integrate and balance both parts of herself and accept both parts of herself (which I don't think she does successfully, I personally think by season 7 slayer Buffy has subsumed girl Buffy, which is a real shame and a pretty big failing of the show.) But I disagree with Riley that he is in love with both parts of Buffy. He wants the normal girl and is resentful of the slayer. It is the normal girl he developed feelings for - when he believed he was the one with the secret knowledge and the power - and he never really accepts that she is more than he first thought; that she has more knowledge and power than him. He loves girl Buffy but he doesn't love (or even want - once the initial thrill is over) slayer Buffy.
Angel, to my mind, is the exact reverse of this. He fell in love (from a distance) with a vulnerable, innocent girl handed a big destiny. He wants to help that girl, he wants to save her and ultimately he wants her to save him. He is in love with slayer Buffy - all nobility and goodness. He is far less interested in girl Buffy - and when she acts like girl Buffy, he often talks down to her. He doesn't go out of his way to find out anything about her, as a person. Now I'm not saying I blame him for being not interested in her life as a teenage girl. I'm only 33 and have no interest in talking to teenagers - I can only imagine how dull and ridiculous they must seem to someone who is 240. That's fair enough ... but it can't be said that he is in love with her if he has no interest in the other half of her identity, if he has no interest in the bits of her that are unique to her alone and are not part of a mythic warrior package.
I don't think this is a conscience feeling on his part. I believe he believes he loves her. He just doesn't have a very good or healthy understanding of what love is. And his own self involvement - his constant brooding on his own need for redemption - blinds him to the fact that there is an entire half of Buffy that he is not interacting with. He makes Buffy what he wants her to be, in his mind, and ignores what isn't convenient. And that's not love.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 03/09/2019 17:43

The problem I now have with Angel is what an absolute sleaze David Boreanaz turned out to be in real life...