To say there is no such thing as "altruistic" surrogacy?

[FannyCann]

To say there is no such thing as altruistic surrogacy and that this fiction is a massive state sponsored fraud?

The Law Commission has a Consultation to review surrogacy laws in the UK and you have til 11th October to respond.

There are 16 questions relating to payment, but they find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Admit women are paid for this “service” and recommend full commercial surrogacy puts the UK on a par with countries such as Uganda, the Ukraine and Russia. The UN Special Rapporteur links commercial surrogacy with the sale of babies. So of course we don’t do that in the UK. Oh no. We have “altruistic” surrogacy here. Surrogates are merely recompensed for expenses incurred as a result of the pregnancy, plus the odd “gift”.
So altruistic that from the Law Commioners own research into payments surrogates have been receiving, the median payment was £14,795.54 and 9.61% were paid more than £20,000.

Payments were claimed for things like takeaway meals and cleaners.

This is clearly State Sponsored Fraud. I challenge anyone to produce receipts to prove their pregnancy cost them £20,000

I also suggest that this puts surrogates in a tricky situation should HMRC or the benefits office ever take an interest in the origin of that £20k. It is very wrong for the law to encourage this fraud.

I ask you to look at the background and if you want to have a say into whether commercial surrogacy should be allowed in the UK please respond.

Here is a link to the Nordic Model Now template which you can download and use to respond in ten minutes.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes//_

You can find moe background and discussion of the Consultation on this thread.

Building families through surrogacy: A new Law - Consultation
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3649812-building-families-through-surrogacy-a-new-law-consultation

The 4th trimester is a recognised time for a baby.
The parents may be the biological parents but the mother is still the mother as far as the baby is concerned. Trauma during infancy has been shown to have lasting affects into childhood and further.

So surprised to learn that FannyCann has multiple children herself..

I don't know anyone in the surrogacy community who approves of commercial surrogacy, and I'm sure there are valid concerns to be addressed.

But I also know lots of women who have been surrogates - you're writing off their actual lived experience by deeming that altruistic surrogacy can't exist, based on zero evidence it seems. Have you ever even met a woman who has been a surrogate?

YABU.

@Alsohuman every human that has every existed has been created by a woman who had grown that child inside her body.

The only way that men can have a 'right' in law to have a child is if they have a 'right' to purchase the use of a woman's body. I do not agree with that.

Everyone who says they are in favour of altruistic surrogacy but not commercial surrogacy should click on the link. Because commercial surrogacy is what we are about to get. .

The Adam Kay case is more of an argument for better prenatal care surely. Placenta praevia is one of the things which should be screened for at the 20 week scan and in that particular case it wasn't picked up. I don't really see how it's an argument against surrogacy.

Personally I am against commercial surrogacy but can't see an issue with altruistic surrogacy. People take risks for family members all the time, what about people who give up a kidney for a sibling/child are you against that too?

*Unpopular opinion alert, I think that surrogacy AND IVF should be banned.

The world and the economy are going to shit and the last thing we need is more people, and money and resources being wasted on producing more people. We need to look after the ones we've already got.*

Oh I see, so it's selfish to inflict more people on the world...but only if you require IVF or surrogacy to do so. Heterosexuals with working reproductive systems - crack on and bang out as many as you like.

Again I'd be interested to know your fertility history Redsuitcase?

@pennypineapple we sort of have somewhat commercial surrogacy by the back door in this country because of the expenses that can be paid. I am not aware of this happening with kidney donation. I hope it isn't.

However crucially at the moment the contracts aren't enforceable. We are about to get enforceable contracts, commercial rates of pay and advertising. I think that buying and selling human beings should be illegal.

The problem with alteristic surrogacy is it opens the door. It makes women feel its something that they should do. Some women may then feel pressured to go into it. It's also easy to consider the risk but in reality no one actually thinks it will happen to them. A woman left with life long injuries is unlikely to think "oh well at least my brother got a baby". If she dies her husband is unlikely to feel happy that his bil got a baby out of his wife's death.

And if we say it's OK for you to surrogate for friends and family, then it gets pushed to, strangers if you really want to do it, then you can be paid expenses then we've suddenly opened the door to commercial surrogacy.

Best to just ban it all.

@Teddypicker1 I think it would be better if the expenses were restricted. But if the law remains as it is I don't really think commercial surrogacy will take off in Britain. Because it's not a legally enforceable agreement.

The proposed changes to the law are terrifying.

I'll ask again, and none of you are answering.

What's your fertility history, Teddypicker1?

Just be nice to know what experience you have in this area?

I'm sure there are some people who are prepared to carry a child for someone they are close to and it's not unreasonable to expect some financial help. Pregnancy is not always a picnic after all.

I do find the whole idea horrible though.

I’m pro choice for abortion and believe women should have control over their own bodies at all times . Altruistic surrogacy for a friend or family member I like the idea of technically but for any other reasons I can’t ever believe it altruism would be the motive .

I think commercial surrogacy has the potential to compromise the vulnerable and women in poverty .

You want a ban on surrogacy?! Wow. That’s probably one of the most horrible things I’ve read for a while.

Exactly the reason it’s illegal to sell a kidney for example , plus then you are opening the door to essentially human trafficking to a certain extent of you can easily sell babies or organs .

@elvis86 I dont think you have a right to demand to know any one else's fertility history?

This effects the rights of all women and all children. You don't have to have had fertility issues to have an opinion. Though given how common they are I am sure many of the women commenting have had direct experience of fertility problems.

For what it's worth I have a close relative who suffered from serious kidney disease and it didn't make me think that commercial organ donation should be allowed.

Actually back to the altruistic thing there are fairly frequently threads on here in which someone is being pressured into kidney donation for a relative. Luckily there seems to be a mechanism in place in which the screening body will provide a letter saying they aren't a match if they don't want to do it.

There should be similar checks and counselling for altruistic surrogacy. Unfortunately we are heading in the direction of commercial surrogacy.

*@elvis86 I dont think you have a right to demand to know any one else's fertility history? *

So safe to assume that those of you saying surrogacy should be banned all have your own kids, then?

I'm with RedSuitcase. No one has a right to a child, if a woman (or man) is infertile it means there are other things they will have the freedom to do.

elvis86 Why are you so keen to know poster's fertility history? Just because someone has children does not mean they can't disapprove of surrogacy.
I care about the world my daughters are living in and The Brave New World of baby farming isn't a great template.

Yes I have two daughters born at age 40 & 42 because I met my husband late in the day. We had discussed and agreed that we would breed puppies or travel a lot if children didn't happen for us.

Talking of puppies our politicians are keen to offer puppies protections that they will offer women. Lucy's law protects puppies from farming.

inews.co.uk/news/uk/lucys-law-puppy-farm-ban-what-new-legislation-explained-how-buy-dog/amp/

Licensed dog breeders must not use a bitch for more than six litters but the Kennel club restricts it to four. India by the way restricts women to one surrogate pregnancy.
But this consultation recommends no upper limit on the number of surrogate babies a woman can have. And a minimum age of 18. So they can start after leaving school and keep going til their bodies pack up in them. Don't think no one would do that - Dustin Lance Black interviewed a surrogate who had had 13 babies and he wasn't remotely concerned for her.
I have cared for a woman having her 15th baby in 15 years. She was the same age as I was at the time but looked 60. Chronic anaemia, poor teeth,skin and hair. No abdominal or pelvic floor muscles to speak of.

How many kids have you got there yourself, MoaningMinnie1?

Being so dismissive about infertility is really insensitive.

I genuinely find it sad that you're all perceiving surrogacy in the UK completely wrongly. If you would actually meet and talk to surrogates you would find that their account is nothing like what you're describing.

@SimonJT where has Fanny used a racist term?

I think we need to start from the position that no one has the right to be a parent. I know to some that’s a simple statement of fact and to others it’s a heartbreaking reality but the reality of surrogacy is the commodification of humans.

A human life should never ever be bought or sold.

But what about the rights of the babies? Especially those who lose ties with their biological mothers/fathers.