To say there is no such thing as "altruistic" surrogacy?

[FannyCann]

To say there is no such thing as altruistic surrogacy and that this fiction is a massive state sponsored fraud?

The Law Commission has a Consultation to review surrogacy laws in the UK and you have til 11th October to respond.

There are 16 questions relating to payment, but they find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Admit women are paid for this “service” and recommend full commercial surrogacy puts the UK on a par with countries such as Uganda, the Ukraine and Russia. The UN Special Rapporteur links commercial surrogacy with the sale of babies. So of course we don’t do that in the UK. Oh no. We have “altruistic” surrogacy here. Surrogates are merely recompensed for expenses incurred as a result of the pregnancy, plus the odd “gift”.
So altruistic that from the Law Commioners own research into payments surrogates have been receiving, the median payment was £14,795.54 and 9.61% were paid more than £20,000.

Payments were claimed for things like takeaway meals and cleaners.

This is clearly State Sponsored Fraud. I challenge anyone to produce receipts to prove their pregnancy cost them £20,000

I also suggest that this puts surrogates in a tricky situation should HMRC or the benefits office ever take an interest in the origin of that £20k. It is very wrong for the law to encourage this fraud.

I ask you to look at the background and if you want to have a say into whether commercial surrogacy should be allowed in the UK please respond.

Here is a link to the Nordic Model Now template which you can download and use to respond in ten minutes.

https://nordicmodelnow.org/2019/08/30/how-to-respond-to-the-uk-surrogacy-consultation-in-10-easy-minutes//_

You can find moe background and discussion of the Consultation on this thread.

Building families through surrogacy: A new Law - Consultation
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3649812-building-families-through-surrogacy-a-new-law-consultation

@Teddypicker1 Etsy. You made that, you can charge more on there for bespoke items.

Seriously though there was a case in the US where the surrogates were pregnant before being matched to intended parents. So litrial baby farming.

Pretty rubbish screening process to allow that to happen.

It was an agency doing it. But these are the type of practises that start when babies are made a commodity.

Sadly it's not a short leap from a sister gifting another sister with a child, to flying to an Indian baby farm to buy a infant.

It's a few years old. But here is an account of actual altruistic surrogacy.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/apr/27/secret-diary-of-a-surrogate-mother#comments

The whole thing seems fraught with risk to me. Medical, psychological and to family relationships.

Thanks for linking that story. I welled up reading about her giving them up.

It was hard to hear what the mother went through. But the thought is very present in my mind of what will those babies think when they're older. Their mum has no biological link to them. Their aunt is their mother but gave them up. But has children at home that she didn't give away. And they have a genetic mother they'll never meet.

It's not right for the mother or the babies, and that ladies children should not have had their mother put at risk.

The thing is on the bare facts this looks like a surrogacy success story.

Altruistic, no money changes hands, selfless surrogate mother relinquishes babies but stays in close contact.

Dig beneath the surface and there appears to be a world of emotional pain. For the surrogate mother, for the adoptive mother of the children, for all the siblings and probably eventually for the twins themselves.

There are so many what ifs as well. What if she had died? What if she hadn't been able to give up the babies? Would she have had to co-parent with her own brother?

I was also left wondering if the adoptive mother would be able to bond with the babies.

I remember reading that story for the first time and I think it's what made me anti surrogacy. I wasn't even a mother then and I found it disturbing.

Those poor babies, their legal parents with their two nannies didn't even seem that interested in them. The whole thing just sounded horrible for the mother. Awful and the thought of it becoming more common is horrible.

God that article is awful.

That article was hard reading. Incredibly selfish behaviour from the brother especially.

I feel so badly for those twins.

YABVU. £14,000 surely covers missed earnings while pregnant/post partum recovering? It's not a huge sum.

As selling a baby is illegal in the UK, I was always sceptical about these expenses, especially as my pregnancy cost very little - some bigger clothes which at today's values would cost about £200. I had no travel costs as doctors and hospital were walkable from my home. But, say the actual genuine expenses were about £1,000 for clothes and extras and £1,000 for travel. That would leave £12,000. Supposing no maternity pay and 6 weeks leave before and 6 weeks to recover, that would gross up to take home pay of 48,000 per annum, so an annual salary of at least £65,000. I would be willing to wager that no woman on that kind of income has been a surrogate ever!

That article was very upsetting. There was a really interesting comment posted below the story- the intended parents refused to have the details of the egg donor so that the twins could learn of their genetic heritage, yet the whole reason for this surrogacy was the brother's desperation for his own genetic offspring. So genetics is either important or it isn't, and if it's vital to him then why is he depriving his kids of those rights?

@GlitchStitch that comment struck me as well. Just shows how selfish and thoughtless the whole endeavour was.

That article was awful. Besides which, she already had kids, wtf did she need to have more? And yes I get the bit about his wanting his own to an extent but that still doesn’t sit right with me.

Added to which it seems fairly obvious that they went abroad so that the doner’s details could remain anonymous. So I bet they had no intention of telling the kids ever.

And, and I know I may get flamed for this, wtf bother having kids if all you’re going to do is palm them off to two nannies so you can go back to work?

Surely if you are in your 30s and desperate for kids you either don't stay in a relationship with an older woman who is no longer able to conceive or you do and make your peace with the fact that choice means no biological kids of your own. The answer isn't to risk both the physical and mental health of a third party to satisfy your wants.

I've shared this link before on previous threads but definitely worth a read if you have some time. This is the very detailed court judgement of a perfectly legal so called 'altruistic' surrogacy arrangement in the UK. The attitude of the IPs is horrific as is the clear exploitation of the women involved.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWFC/HCJ/2016/34.html

Thing is, there are posters on here who would argue that because it was two men they were clearly exploiting a woman’s body, but if it was a woman then no-one would be permitted an opinion unless they had been through the heartache and devastation of infertility. But it’s entirely the same whether it’s a man or a woman. Someone is still being exploited for someone else’s gain.

And the fact the couple had already fallen out with their previous surrogate spoke volumes.

I always admit when I’m wrong and as a result of this thread, I’ve done some reading and I watched the Big Fertility documentary. I also read the article linked above. My feelings have shifted somewhat. I have seriously considered surrogacy for a dear friend who is heartbroken at her infertility. I cannot do it due to health reasons but I have to say, having learned what I have, I am not sure if I would do it even if I could. I think I focused on ensuring the love was there (in terms of my friend) and I know she’d provide a very good life and I’d do it out of love for my friend. My thoughts were less with a little human being and how it might be for them. I have now been thinking it might be hard for that child to spend time with auntie Schuyler and my children when that child is part of me still not not part of me.

schuyler I think many of us start off with the same presumption. How lovely to help out poor infertile couples with such an amazing gift..... I certainly did. But then you find out more about the impact on all involved and the risk of abuse and it isn't so simple anymore.

Glitch - that judgement makes for very sobering reading.

I can see that the proposed changes are intended to prevent that sort of exploitation happening but it won't stop situations like that guardian article happening.

There is a columnist in the times who is trying to find a surrogate. She has gone through 36 donated eggs in her various attempts to have a child.

It is no longer a want but an all encompassing obsession by that point.

I also read about a woman in her 70s who has just given birth to twins in India.

The fertility industry is not about children anymore. It is about exploiting mental illness.

@Schuyler thank you so much for that post, and I am so glad you watched the film and learnt what is at the heart of this cruel industry - money.
I am now reading the book Broken Bonds by Jennifer Lahl - more accounts of women's experiences and the casual callousness with which they have been treated. It's a tough read.
No way do I want to see this sort of thing coming to the UK.

@OrchidInTheSun I wonder if that columnist has thought about the egg donors? Reading the experience of one egg donor - how she was groomed and farmed for her eggs, with heartbreaking consequences for her health. It's all so wrong. The one column I have read from that write in the Times (someone kindly posted a share token) it is clear that she is also being appallingly treated by her doctor in the USA. They just see a pay cheque from all the women involved.

The Guardian's article is heartbreaking. If someone thinks that it is ok to get his mid forties sister through a twins pregnancy just to satisfy his desire to be a biological father, that person doesn't need a surrogate but a psychologist.

*I also read about a woman in her 70s who has just given birth to twins in India.

The fertility industry is not about children anymore. It is about exploiting mental illness.*

There's also the fact that in many countries - perhaps including India - a couple are considered a failure if they don't produce children. Naturally, the brunt of this will fall on the woman in traditional societies, and this will encourage them to resort to any and all means to have their 'own' children, whatever the cost to anyone else, including the innocent baby.

If someone thinks that it is ok to get his mid forties sister through a twins pregnancy just to satisfy his desire to be a biological father, that person doesn't need a surrogate but a psychologist.

I don't normally advocate smacking but I'd go so far as to say his mother should have spanked his bottom!

Seriously, that mother seems to have been put in the very difficult position of family mediator when I would have thought she must have been outraged by the behaviour of her selfish son.

Just dropping in some flyers from Nordic Model Now - the QR codes mean you can instantly access their response, so they are great for sharing.

I know this thread has kind of fizzled out, but I just saw this post on Reddit
www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/d1uwj7/my_f_20_mother_f_37_tells_me_if_i_dont_be_her/
Full post if you don't want to click

"My (f 20) mother (f 37) tells me if I don’t be her surrogate she’ll cut me out of her life forever.
My mother and her new husband want to have a baby. She’s still young so she still is fertile however both of her past pregnancies were complicated and very dangerous. So her doctor told her to absolutely not get pregnant as it will just be even more risky now that she’s older. She told me all of this this morning, and then she asked me to be her surrogate. She said all I have do is carry her egg and have it fertilized by her husband. I told her I can’t do that. For one, I’m trying to get my nursing degree and I don’t want anything to slow me down. And I already have a two year old with my boyfriend, and remembering what it was like to be pregnant there’s no way I want to go through it again so soon. I’m also worried because a lot of the bonding mothers do with their babies is while it’s still in the womb. I don’t want to feel attached maternally to a baby that won’t be mine. I gave her my reasons and she just rolled her eyes and told me “it would be a small sacrifice for you to do this for me”. She told me all she wants is another baby and that I shouldn’t deprive her of it when I can help her so easily. I tried to reason with her but she literally told me “if you don’t do this to me then I don’t want a relationship with you anymore”. I asked her if she was serious and she told me “yes” and left. I don’t know what to do. My mom is very stubborn and very vindictive so she probably means it at least for now. I’m not sure how I should handle this. I think she’s acting crazy."

Thankfully it sounds like the OP is strong and not likely to be manipulated easily but it just goes to show.