FULL EU MEMBERSHIP - now?

[Blazingatrail]

Reflecting on the last 24 hours, we now need to consider that leaving with or without a deal is looking increasingly inevitable.

With this in mind, and with a general election looming immediately after brexit. Is it now time for the lib Dems to be campaigning for full EU membership? The referendum was to leave, but that does not mean the UK can not apply to rejoin as a full member of the EU in the future.

Surely it is better to now put some energy into the future, to deciding how to proceed after brexit.

Do we think that is the way forward now? If the Lib Dems win they can immediately vote to reapply to rejoin as a full member, possibly with the euro etc etc.

stopping free movement from the EU had nothing to do with getting rid of the type of immigrants they did not like.

Not true. People understood very well what they were voting for in this regard. The referendum came at a time when Germany had basically opened up its borders and was letting anyone in who turned up - it did not know if the people arriving were refugees, economic migrants or a threat to security. If given permanent leave to remain in Germany, they would also acquire the right of freedom of movement. I think it's entirely reasonable for British voters to want immigration that might affect Britain to be entirely within Britain's control.
The govt had also ignored the impact of high Eastern European immigration on British workers in parts of the UK.
My sil is from a non EU country - the hoops she has had to jump through and the money spent to stay here seems very unfair when other people just get to come here. I think all that needs to be evened up.
Successive govts have underestimated, or not been entirely truthful about how many people from EU countries have moved here - it suits employers who use the labour to keep wages low and allows them to accuse British workers of laziness because they cannot work for the same wage as a migrant worker who is not subject to the same costs of living and is sending their money home and not into the local economy.

I don't think there is ANY confusion between the EU (the Institution) and the Europe that makes up the countries in the continent. The two were conflated initially rather stupidly when the campaign began for referendum, and even those inside Europe feeling that there was bad feeling towards them. For a long time, most people have understood the difference.

Most of the UK is made up of people intrinsically very pro Europe (and very much like European countries) but are anti EU commission. It seems most people do not in fact support the way the EU Institution conducts itself, even if they are very pro european. There in lies the biggest problem of all.

It was impossible to change the EU from within, why is that? It had plenty of support from lots of countries. We need to ask ourselves why it was not possible? And who makes the decisions?
Because there you will find the answer.

Aderyn People understood very well what they were voting for in this regard. The referendum came at a time when Germany had basically opened up its borders and was letting anyone in who turned up - it did not know if the people arriving were refugees, economic migrants or a threat to security. If given permanent leave to remain in Germany, they would also acquire the right of freedom of movement. I think it's entirely reasonable for British voters to want immigration that might affect Britain to be entirely within Britain's control. The govt had also ignored the impact of high Eastern European immigration on British workers in parts of the UK.

I'm pro-EU and voted remain but this is actually true. Germany bent the rules to suit itself (it needs more cheap labour) and the EU expanded hugely in a very short time to change from the small trading bloc of prosperous western European countries to let in a lot of former communist Eastern European states with weak economies. While this is a good thing overall, its not surprising that it caused fallout.

Added to that Junker and Tusk combined have been an absolute disaster for the EU due to their lack of conciliatory skills. Poland, Tusk's country, is actually in a constitutional mess at the moment itself but seems to get away with it in a way that Hungary, which has similar problems, doesn't.

There is an imbalance of power in the EU and its not entirely healthy. Overall a good thing but we are leaving and I'd be happy to leave and negotiate trade deals than to be stuck in this constant loop of constitutional uncertainty.

JudgeJudy has nailed it. I have lived near Brussels for 13 years, yet voted Leave. Europe is brilliant, and I have really enjoyed the places I've been to, but I loathe the EU and the institutions thereof. Before I get called out for voting whilst abroad, initially we were here with HM Forces, including a secondment to the EUMS for dh ( hence the Leave vote)... and we are moving back to the UK in six weeks time, so arriving 9 days before Brexit.

JudgeJudy It was impossible to change the EU from within, why is that? It had plenty of support from lots of countries. We need to ask ourselves why it was not possible? And who makes the decisions?
Because there you will find the answer.

Because unanimity is required in most important decisions by the EU member states. Unanimity is required for treaty changes. For a proposal to be adopted by the EU Council, no single member state can vote against the proposal.

Did all you Leave voters want a No Deal? Did food and medicine shortages sound like it might be fun?

Scary you and me both, anyone that has lived in Europe for long periods is very aware of the lack of transparency at the heart of the commission, but still largely very supportive of Europe has a continent.

Qual Lets be honest, Berlin runs the show. It has done for a very long time, firstly behind the scenes and now quite openly. Lots of countries have a problem with this, not just the UK. Those that benefit the most from EU cash wisely keep quiet. This is not breaking news. We are all aware that when anyone wants to talk to Europe these days they call Merkel.

Vlad It is a thread about full membership, you need to post on the riots thread for doom and gloom.

JudgeJudy Qual Lets be honest, Berlin runs the show. It has done for a very long time, firstly behind the scenes and now quite openly. Lots of countries have a problem with this, not just the UK. Those that benefit the most from EU cash wisely keep quiet. This is not breaking news. We are all aware that when anyone wants to talk to Europe these days they call Merkel.

Germany, with its sidekick Poland.

@Blazingatrail

Are you actually having a laugh? No-one in their right minds would vote Lib-Dems? 😂Nor Labour with that clown CORBYN at the helm! 😂

Personally, my vote will be for the Conservatives if an election comes up soon. Boris Johnson as PM makes me very happy. That or The Brexit Party.. Nigel Farage will be the next best thing.

This thread will run and run because it's pro-EU.

Only the anti-EU ones are deleted ...

I wonder why that is.

Qual Sidekick is France last time I checked in the shape of Macron.

Anti-EU threads are not deleted, and there are plenty of comments in this thread that are critical of elements of the EU.

user Read the thread.
It seems that no one wants to rejoin though, under any circumstances it seems. So I am not sure it is as proEU as you imagine. We managed to squeeze out one poster that said they would support a full membership. Everyone else declined...

@scaryteacher

I also loathe the EU and everything that it stands for with a flaming passion.

It scares me that some people have such a strong case of Stockholm Syndrome, and are so afraid to leave. I think this is what makes them so irrational, so angry, and so ranty. The fear of the unknown......... They are SCARED to break away.

The EU do not want us to leave, but it's not because they like us and care about us, it's because they like the VAST amount of money we give them each week. Anyone who thinks that they want us to stay because they LIKE us is seriously deluded!!!

Oh France too JudgeJudy but really Poland is getting away with all sorts of constitutional transgressions and Tusk is in the thick of it and full of verging-on-racist comments about the British. Its horrible what has happened to a trading bloc set up in the aftermath of WW2 to ensure that the countries of Europe work together in co-operation and never end up at war again.

I can't have been the only person living and working in Europe in recent years who heard horrible comments about the British. I got particularly sick of hearing the "You don't look British, you're not fat and ugly" one. Theres a definite air of seeing the Brits as awkward, difficult, misguided, the odd ones out and somehow this seems to be encouraged.

Germany does not have an army to speak of (they used broomsticks instead of guns in the last NATO training session) most European countries do not have huge armies, nor invest heavily in their military intelligence

Just to pull you up on your 'Mail source for news... whilst its true on one particular exercise Germany had a supply cockup with weapons (it was quickly fixed) it is no different from the british army running out of ammunition or A/C with no planes.

Germany has a reasonable strong defence force, ranked 18th, the UK is 9th, France is 7th these are world rankings (2015) in some categories, Germany scores higher than the UK.

The UK doesn't invest heavily in defence, it has to inc pensions and benefits to reach the nato 2% of GDP target, Germany is 1.35% but has a higher GDP.

The EU will form an Army and we won't be part of it, its inevitable as the USA pulls back from being world policeman and faces the threat from China in the Pacific.

The UK will never rejoin the EU, it took 40 years to have a referendum & look what that has done to the country????
No Govt will risk such another divisive vote, what will happen is one of two things: we will have ever closer ties, paying in, becoming a close economic partner OR we will become separate and detached (most likely option)

I got particularly sick of hearing the "You don't look British, you're not fat and ugly" one

TBF that isn't racism, more of an observation.

Just come back from ASDA in Bodmin, pretty soon they'll need to make the aisles wider, can't people control their eating?

fed up with project fear doom mongers and how this is going to affect us for years. victims of hiroshama and nagasaki suffered shit loads more than we ever will and are still suffering. it's brexit not atomic warfare.

This thread illustrates a lot of reasons not to be in the EU, I thought people on mumsnet were very pro EU, it has been an enlightening read.

Slight problem, of course...
If BoJo gets his Brexit, he gets Henry VIII powers for two years and can do whatever he wants and set any law he pleases. If there are riots, protests, or disruption, he can invoke the Civil Contingencies Act and can do... whatever he wants and set any law he pleases.
Why, when he has complete power and can do absolutely anything without being held to account, would he hold a General Election?
Just watch and wait - the prorogation of Parliament now is just the start. Come November, if Brexit happens, all the safety and security this country has largely enjoyed will be gone. No more elections, no more social security, no more care homes, no support, no help, no NHS - all sold to the highest bidder.

Don't get me wrong. I think Juncker is a waste of space. Completely took the role for a joke and had a blast drinking whiskey at 9am and put out a few communiqués about "working together" around midday during his tenure.

But the fall out will be much worse. It is madness to think you can go it alone against the largest trading bloc in the world whom also happens to be your neighbour. And even worse to hold Ireland as collateral.

I'm not a fan of 'Ever Closer Union' - but I can see the benefits of being in and shaping the rules than being out and having to adhere to the rules. SPS? Anyone?

banana are you seriously saying you think the government will scrap so social security, elections, the NHS. Have you been at the wine slightly earlier than usual??
I mean this kindly, you sound absolutely deranged. If this what you genuinely think, then you have my sympathy.
The conservatives have been in power for nearly ten years, at no point has anyone ever even considered this, nor would they ever. Not at any time in our history had any party ever suggested this, but don’t let the facts get in the way.

jas
Your figures are very out of date, and not even true back in 2015 I suspect. A quick search will tell you that the United Kingdom has more military power than both France and certainly Germany (Germany is a long way down the list) the UK also possesses world class intelligence that the whole of the EU relies on heavily.

As usual you are dishing out a lot of misinformation.
UK is one of the few members that always pays its NATO membership, Germany never has to date.

It is interesting you are peddling such a myth without considering the true facts.

Jasjas All NATO Allies include military pensions et al in the 2% (or not the 2% in the case of Germany and others), as it was decided by the Allies that is how the metrics for the 2% would be calculated. May I suggest you read the annexes to the Sec Gens report for 2018 to see how this is calculated?

Von Der Leyen's tenure as German Defence Minister has not been a happy one for the German Armed Forces...even their planes don't work, which is a tad embarrassing when you are trying to fly guests from Brussels to Berlin for a military tattoo. The German politicians, and others, are far too fond of riding on US cost tails defence wise. Don't fool yourself otherwise. This is what Bush, Obama and Trump have all spoken out about...the Allies need to pay their dues, and my sources are not the Daily Mail.