FULL EU MEMBERSHIP - now?

[Blazingatrail]

Reflecting on the last 24 hours, we now need to consider that leaving with or without a deal is looking increasingly inevitable.

With this in mind, and with a general election looming immediately after brexit. Is it now time for the lib Dems to be campaigning for full EU membership? The referendum was to leave, but that does not mean the UK can not apply to rejoin as a full member of the EU in the future.

Surely it is better to now put some energy into the future, to deciding how to proceed after brexit.

Do we think that is the way forward now? If the Lib Dems win they can immediately vote to reapply to rejoin as a full member, possibly with the euro etc etc.

A lot of the reason we left is sheer propaganda, i.e. lies being sold to us about the EU. Bendy bananas and so forth. An apparent influx of east Europeans etc etc. I can't say that I didn't see this coming being both sides of the Channel most of my life. But it's really quite remarkable how many lives will be affected and indeed for a generation because Cameron was terrified of Farage - who's been an MEP riding on the EU gravy train for about 20 years.

Astonishing when you think about it really.

so the UK joining the euro was always going to happen eventually

That's pure inaccurate tosh, and precisely the sort of scaremongering bullshit that led to this mess.

A closer relationship is certainly what is/was coming, regardless of the various shades of support in the UK.

Which is exactly why there was growing opposition to the EU over the past couple of decades and when Brexit won the referendum. Lots of people don't want closer integrations. The people voted to join the EEC in the 70s - that was basically a easy/cheap trade agreement. What it morphed into without public consultation was exactly the reason we're now in this mess. The public never voted for a European parliament, freedom of movement, the Euro, European courts, European army etc. It was forced upon the UK population by stealth. The UK politicians of the past 20-30 years are solely to blame for this fiasco as they ignored the rumblings of protest as ever-closer integration was imposed on the people. Personally I think the killer blow was Blair and his "hit the right" plan when he chose not to limit the number of Eastern Europeans coming to the UK when those countries joined the UK.

As one of the major contributors financially to the EU the UK would not have been downgraded to second tier status.

Honestly, OP, the EU you are describing is exactly the totalitarian, monolithic dictator that the Leave campaign painted, and look what happened. You seriously believe that by confirming this belief you will win over the public?

Blazing Perhaps but I'm no longer in that life anymore. I do however follow it as close as life allows me to I do understand your theory r.e. tiers. This was mooted also around the time of Greece crisis.

I no longer live in the UK full time either, we are straddling the (new) divide so to speak vlad and we too saw this coming years ago, the rumblings grew louder and more incessant. Although the leave vote was clearly very much a shock.

I just wonder now whether we will see a full circle. There seems to be plenty of support in the UK for the EU. Much more than before the ref even, I am old to remember the complete indifference!

The tiers options were seen to be a solution to the various forms of membership if you remember, and had legs until the Brexit vote was to leave.

I don’t believe the EU will stand still, it will survive this current crisis, deal with the economic headwinds, and hopefully there will be fresh energy from Berlin with Merkels departure.

Lib Dem do not have a crystal ball, but should be planning a post Brexit position.

kazzy There has been a steady succession of mistakes accepted. One could argue this could have been avoided had a ref been brought forward many years ago, a people’s mandate, pre 2008 crisis would surely have been the best option in hindsight.

Personally it's nice to have a pm with the balls to say to the EU UP YOURS. They had their chance to give us a decent deal and the back stops a joke.

You really think the EU would have us back after all this? Seriously?

Given that we're one of the 10 nations out of the total 28 in the EU, that actually are net contributors to the EU coffers, yes, we're more valuable to them, than some of the tinpot former Soviet Union states that they've added into the fold over the years.

Good for you Blazing, it was honestly the other day I started wondering if I should start stockpiling whereas prior to that thought the stockpilers had watched one too many alien invasion films!

I totally agree with you on the point that although we could see it coming the Leave vote was a shock. Can't quite reconcile that fact but there we go.

I don't think the EU will not set sail into Ever Closer Union with the departure of the UK. There are many dissident voices - only they had the UK to hide behind, now they're going to have to come out of the closet, so to speak.

I mean I don't think the EU will *now set sail to Ever Closer Union.

Out of the pan and into the fire comes to mind. It’s one thing to rejoin the EU but joining the eurozone is madness.

Agreed there Boggles. Joining the Eurozone would be madness two-fold: Firstly: Literally zero support for this among the UK populace and secondly the idea is mad!

If the Lib Dems win they can immediately vote to reapply to rejoin as a full member, possibly with the euro etc etc

You want the UK to join the Euro? Really? Are you out of your fucking mind!?

I don't think people would go for it OP for the reasons outlined above.

Remember although Brexit is a massive issue, it is just one issue, and people have to broadly agree with the approach to education, economy, NHS, taxes etc to vote. Lib dems lost so much support after the coalition, they have a massive gap to bridge.

If people could go back to how things were it may be ok. But the EU arent going to negotiate that, if we joined it would be on their terms so probably joining the Euro, paying more than we used to (I think we proportionately paid less than we should have before) etc. If less than half the people wanted a half and half membership like we currently have, why would you think there would be support for full membership?

Maybe I'm completely misreading public opinion atm but shouldn't we (as a united nation) be trying to make sure that we actually survive post brexit, rather than whinging over something that we personally cannot change now? Leavers won't vote in a party that aims to put us back in the EU. The fact of the matter is, whether we like it or not, the majority voted to leave the EU and that is what we are going to do, with or without a deal. The time has come to accept that. The concern now, should be making the transition go as smoothly as it possibly can and to avoid even more of our lower classes slipping further into poverty in the aftermath of this political shitstorm.

We could have had a decent EEA-style deal had Theresa May not set out insane contradictory red lines. And we are where we are in part because of her mantra: "No deal is better than a bad deal".

That might win headlines but good luck to anyone who's dependent on prescriptive medication or indeed needs to budget for food. Or indeed anyone in Northern Ireland. Total shit show this Brexit thing.

If we leave, the public are not going to vote to go back in. I am a remainer and there is no way I would ever vote for a party taking us back in as a full member.

A lot of leave voters voted on immigration (yes some say there are other reasons, but one of them seems to be non-EU immigration!). Opening the borders by becoming a Schengen area is not going to be accepted. We were able to take so few refugees/immigrants travelling across Europe because we could veto it.

We will also never join the Euro. It is not as simple as just changing to dollars and cents from pounds and pennies, all sweet and lovely like changing to decimalisation. The major issue with the Euro is that it is controlled by the central bank. The rate etc are set centrally, not by each country. That is why so many European countries during the recession ended up in such dire situations as they could not do anything to help. When we hit the recession, the government could undertake quantitative easing to introduce liquidity and help keep the country investing and going. Without that, we would have had issues and being controlled centrally be somewhere else where you cannot do what is best for the country would not be accepted.

I do like the EU as we have it. Yes it has its faults, but we would be better staying and working on it from the inside, rather than voting in people who don't turn up or turn up just to offend everyone else. Some closer ties with our biggest allies is not that bad and that big issues and the 'second tier citizenship' are just misinformation which caused the whole issue.

I don't think rejoining would be a winning policy because new joiners have to sign up to current terms.

So that means joining the Euro and having the standard VAT system - we wouidn't get back our existing current exemptions, so that could npmean all food. I don't think either of those cinditiins would be acceptable.

Also, with Germany heading in to economic difficulties, the entire EU might need to reform considerably, or fold in favour of a successor (like the Lgue of Natiins becoming the UN). In which case, all bets are off - especially if new version was more like EEC than EU

I agree with many others on here

I think many people voted remain to keep the status quo, the EU would quite rightly only take us back as an all in member with out our vetos

And I certainly wouldn’t want that

Personally it's nice to have a pm with the balls to say to the EU UP YOURS. They had their chance to give us a decent deal and the back stops a joke.

You're acting as if we don't need them more than they need us.

Also, the back stop was suggested by Theresa May. If not the back stop, then what is the solution @TriciaH87 as nobody else has been able to suggest one?

OP and therein lies the truth for the leave vote! not made by slathering racists, but real concern about the ever closer links with the European Union and complete loss of identity. European army anyone?

Just to add to slashlover's point. A border does not necessarily mean physical infrastructure. Any divergence in rules between UK/EU would render a 'hard border' for individuals and businesses trying to conduct life as normal as possible. Imagine a taxi driver going through the border - any divergence means taxi driver may not be actually even able to drop you off across the border even if you can literally see your house.

Anyone who thinks diverging from the largest trading bloc in the world who also happens to be your neighbour and thinks everything will be fine is in for a huge shock.

What we need when this shitstorm is over is a GE based on domestic issues - the NHS, education, welfare and workers rights. Everything that has been allowed to go to shit whilst everyone has been distracted by Brexit.