FULL EU MEMBERSHIP - now?

[Blazingatrail]

Reflecting on the last 24 hours, we now need to consider that leaving with or without a deal is looking increasingly inevitable.

With this in mind, and with a general election looming immediately after brexit. Is it now time for the lib Dems to be campaigning for full EU membership? The referendum was to leave, but that does not mean the UK can not apply to rejoin as a full member of the EU in the future.

Surely it is better to now put some energy into the future, to deciding how to proceed after brexit.

Do we think that is the way forward now? If the Lib Dems win they can immediately vote to reapply to rejoin as a full member, possibly with the euro etc etc.

I am reading many pro EU supporters would NOT support a new membership of the EU which is very hard to understand given how many seem to want to remain from what I have seen. I am most confused as to why on earth anyone would think everything just stays the same, and thats fine. Nothing ever stays the same, anywhere. It is not possible to vote for no change. That is like voting for believing in father christmas. You either vote to leave something, or you vote to commit to something.

You can't vote to insure yourself against change.

This is the problem in the UK. From the EU perspective, the UK always want to be part of the club, but with one foot very firmly outside the door all of the time. You don't want to be part any problems (such as euro issues, immigration issues) but you definitely want to stay part of the more profitable upsides. Do you not think we would all like that? Here in the Netherlands, we are committed, not all of us want to be by perhaps an even bigger margin than the UK, but we accept you can't cherry pick your commitment depending on what works for just you.

The plans afoot, ask the swiss, as they are now having to make hard decisions too, will not include those on the periphery. Yes the UK can sit tutting for now on the sidelines, but don't expect to actually influence and be part of the big decisions or the future, you can't expect influence simply by being a net contributor.

I can't help but think there is not much love for the EU at all, when it comes to it, no one actually wants to be a bigger part of the EU, perhaps some of you are simply scared of change rather than actively feeling European.

If we have 16.8 million people that voted to remain as part of the EU why won't they have that support

I voted to remain and am very pro EU but I am not in favour of either being in the eurozone or in Schengen. I think on balance I would vote to rejoin on that basis rather than staying outside, but if EFTA/EEA were an option I would prefer those to fullblown EU membership coming from outside. It is very different coming from outside to staying in.

I know some Brexiteers have said that if Remain had won we would have joined the euro and Schengen but I think that's wrong and would not have happened, we'd have kept the status quo plus the concessions that Cameron got on benefits etc.

So if

Rejoin (full with euro and Schengen)
Stay out
Join EFTA/EEA/SM

were on the ballot paper I would vote for EFTA. And I think we could do that quite easily after 31 October to minimise the damage of Brexit and indeed without TM's red lines, we could have sorted things so we never left the EEA.

From the EU perspective, the UK always want to be part of the club, but with one foot very firmly outside the door all of the time

Allegedly. In fact the UK complies with EU law better than most states. The UK moans because it actually complies with the stuff. Other EU members are a lot cuter, say yes yes yes and then do their own thing. So much for perfidious Albion, we're far too well behaved in some respects.

Well I must say the OP and most of these replies rather endorse the Leave vote........

Blazing

perhaps some of you are simply scared of change rather than actively feeling European.

Therein you've summed it up entirely. And as a side... I'm half Dutch

In fact the UK complies with EU law better than most states. The UK moans because it actually complies with the stuff.

Absolutely correct. One of the greatest fallacies of our membership was other neighbours sneering that we're not really proper full members anyway, when in fact we're better than most at implementing EU rules and laws.

I am not endorsing the leave vote at all. Far from it! I am wondering what will happen next.

Will we be out of the EU forever?

Is that what we are saying? So even those that are very pro EU are still minded to sell their grandmother than have the euro is news to me!

Yes the UK are very compliant, other countries do not care for compliancy and simply play the system. If we were all like that the systems would not work at all, I think the UK will be missed for more reasons than just money, her contribution has been enormous over the last forty years. Germany especially rely on us, they are perhaps more exposed now, as we aligned well with more affluent countries of similar outlook.

I can understand that the UK would feel very outraged at the prospect that we leave, never ever to come back, so I am asking the question, why not come back after a successful GE?

And you can be pro-European without being pro-EU. There is a lot wrong with the EU. The most sensible argument I heard for voting to leave was because people didn't like the fact that their accounts have never been audited.

On the one hand, we're told we have to embrace austerity. But on the other hand, the EU does not. Blimey I am turning myself into a Leaver, but I am not being lectured on what being a good European means.

Does anyone remember when Theresa May and at large the Conservatives went on about ending roaming fees and reimbursement for delayed flights as though it was a policy achieved by them? Well no - that was ann EU thing. Wholly an EU policy. Have fun in Spain with insane roaming charges and more over no help should your flight have been delayed. Does anyone think cities are far too polluted? Well the EU have targets and take member states to court for failing to adhere to these standards. Looking forward to your asthmatic gran choking whilst going to the shop post-Brexit. Good luck!

*perhaps some of you are simply scared of change rather than actively feeling European.

Therein you've summed it up entirely. And as a side... I'm half Dutch grin*

Yes when all is said and done, the British will always be well, British. I can not imagine anyone calling themselves European with pride. It may be that they adore Europe, feel great love for it even, and kinship, but the UK is very independent in both nature and geography, and not enough has been done to respect the historical reasons why they feel as they do.

I love the fact you are dutch, I should have guessed, being a straight shooter myself I find it easier to say things as they are, we don't dress things up here. Taxi driver has just delivered a 20 minute sermon as to why the Netherlands should have a referendum. Will we ever hear the end of it???

Blimey I am turning myself into a Leaver, but I am not being lectured on what being a good European means

Loss of identity.😂

And what on earth is wrong with a European army? Having a shared army belonging to several countries carries more weight than our underfunded armed forces that speak for our tiny island.

I am going to put it to you that a deal is coming through the pipe line, we may yet be spared the very worst, and if it does appear it will not be perfect, it will not be ideal, it may not even be especially successful, but I am pretty sure the UK will be offered something before the end of October. We maybe can't click reverse now, but we may be able to salvage something faintly acceptable, that is my hope now.

Yesterday was the finally bloody straw.

final bloody straw.

I would happily vote to rejoin as a full member. I see no problem with an EU army, if one was created. They are our closest allies and i don't see how it's scarily different from the UN.

I also don't think our leaders have our best interests at heart or even in mind.

As for the Euro, I don't know enough about economics to know whether that's a good idea for us, but how the fuck can it be worse than this shit show.

I've always voted Labour but will now vote for whoever is the most pro EU party in my area.

And surely if a GE comes after a no deal and it's as bad as predicted then more people will come around to the idea of rejoining in full.

We have NATO Moo, and lots of countries can not afford to contribute to both (and don't even make their minimum payments now) meaning NATO would no longer be supported by Europe, and would be withdrawn from here. Ask Poland how they feel about that? Or any of the Eastern Europeans.
NATO is what has kept us all safe for the last seventy odd years. In addition it is estimated to take nearly a decade to be operational.
We already have cross country alliances in the west, so another one is not needed, or so the argument goes.

the At last I have one person committed to full membership

I'm confused OP, are you pro EU or not?

No major party is ever going to propose going back into the EU with FULL membership as hardly anyone in the UK would support that.

Most remainers just about tolerate the EU, must be a tiny majority that would actually choose full integration.

And what on earth is wrong with a European army? Having a shared army belonging to several countries carries more weight than our underfunded armed forces that speak for our tiny island.

AMEN!!!! There is nothing inherently wrong with a European Army. And indeed we also have NATO!

Argh!! Reading this thread I can entirely see why we are where we are! JFC!

@theduchessstill OP is pro-EU. Of course she has legitimate concerns about its internal governance and the UK relationship with the EU (as do I), but OP is pro.

I think its a logical question to ask, if a bit too soon.

Obviously, the UK had a good deal with its EU membership in terms of judicial enforcement. Competition law was never quite so strictly enforced in many sectors of industry as in many member states, to give one example. Some people are unaware of variable EU law enforcement - but just compare the EU Commission's differing reactions to constitutional change in Poland and Hungary...

Anyway, its doubtful we would get such a good deal if rejoining. Mutual recognition was a UK "invention" and has been little used, so that would go, and there would be more formal pseudo harmonisation (we are not allowed to call it harmonisation any longer).

What Brexit has really highlighted for me is two things actually:

• the very different nature of the enlarged EU with many E European member states compared to that which the UK joined

• the continual problems with the UK constitution, which have caused uncertainty and in fact could have required any referendum result to be weighted to change the status quo, thus avoiding a lot of the harm that has been done by uncertainty.

Not really sure I want to be beholden and have to suck up to the US for defence, trade....

Not sure what people think we’re gaining with Brexit, we’re too little to survive alone. Frankly I’d rather have full EU membership than be forced to keep Trump sweet.

I never said I was against full membership personally, just that you have no chance of the country voting for it. Not for a generation at least anyway.

All I can say is that history will not look kindly upon Boris Johnson. I mean he literally politicised the fucking Queen! She has remained unencumbered by governance politics for like 6 decades. A few weeks into his premiership and he's ruined that. This country is headed into a shit show. And for the record - We are viewed as a laughing stock among our European contemporaries.