FULL EU MEMBERSHIP - now?

[Blazingatrail]

Reflecting on the last 24 hours, we now need to consider that leaving with or without a deal is looking increasingly inevitable.

With this in mind, and with a general election looming immediately after brexit. Is it now time for the lib Dems to be campaigning for full EU membership? The referendum was to leave, but that does not mean the UK can not apply to rejoin as a full member of the EU in the future.

Surely it is better to now put some energy into the future, to deciding how to proceed after brexit.

Do we think that is the way forward now? If the Lib Dems win they can immediately vote to reapply to rejoin as a full member, possibly with the euro etc etc.

No, we were not going to have to join the Euro!

Greater integration may be the ideal for some but not all. We let down a lot of Member States who had similar views and concerns to our own when we voted to leave.

@familycourtq
"Because of our wanky electoral system where a very large number of votes are simply ignored."
We had our vote on whether we wanted a particular version of Proportional Representation. I agree that we should have a PR system so that it is fair to everyone but can't see how it would work in practical terms. Nothing would ever get done - no laws passed, no budget voted for. It would be chaos.

Our system of majority rule is the fairest possible atm in order to achieve any progress.

We wouldn’t get back in the EU without joining the euro. No way.

Whats so bad about the euro then? Why can't we adopt a new currency.

A majority of people who voted in the referendum voted to leave the EU even though the UK had a very favourable position with opt-outs, no Euro, etc

You make it sound like this is a done deal, and forever going to be the case, when nothing can be further from the truth. The UK would have to join the euro at some point, we can't just sit on the sidelines forever.

I don't understand the opposition to the euro, it seems to work well for other countries (not all admittedly, considering Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc)

There is no way that there would ever be a majority for rejoining the EU in a CLOSER relationship than we had before.

I'm a remainer and most people I know are but I don't imagine any of them want to join the Euro zone or the Schengen zone (maybe the latter would be acceptable for some).

What would have been fairer would have been that a "no vote" (i.e. did not vote) was counted as a vote to maintain the status quo - remain.

The design of the referendum was lazy. The fuckers even forgot about the NI border!

Nothing would ever get done - no laws passed, no budget voted for. It would be chaos.

No it wouldn't. A lot of European governments govern by cross-party consensus. It means things actually do get done and to be betterment of all - not for just a certain group of society i.e. those who voted for the party. Yikes!

The UK would never have been forced to give up its opt-outs or indeed join the Euro. You sound pro-EU but it's nonsense like that which is why we are where we are today

The UK would have been increasingly marginalised. How helpful is it to be part of the EU, but not really part of the leadership of the EU or having any influence on the future. As someone familiar with the technicalities, you will know the new president is incredibly pro integration, and she will be leading the whole continent in a matter of weeks. Yes there are plenty of countries that do not support this at all, and plenty that have been vocal about it, but ultimately they will have to support the general consensus.

We have a GE coming up in just 8 weeks time for goodness sake

Wait, what?!?!

I went straight onto the BBC site after reading this but I can't see it anywhere? Has there really been a GE called? Before or after Brexit?!?

I concede that should the UK want to rejoin the EU it would have to be on different terms. However, whilst we were still in we didn't need to go along with Ever Closer Union. The EU is not a dictatorship. No wonder we're in this shit if this is the view held by many.

There is no way that there would ever be a majority for rejoining the EU in a CLOSER relationship than we had before

So what you are really saying is there is plenty of support for the status quo, accepted, but nothing stays the same. Everything evolves and changes, including the EU. We can not stand still just because one country wants to keep things as they are. The basis of membership means that we all work together.

A closer relationship is certainly what is/was coming, regardless of the various shades of support in the UK. It will be easier to achieve now without the UK.

*We have a GE coming up in just 8 weeks time for goodness sake

Wait, what?!?!

I went straight onto the BBC site after reading this but I can't see it anywhere? Has there really been a GE called? Before or after Brexit?!?*

The BBC really is not the fountain of all knowledge. It is my understanding that the tories are going an GE on or around the 1st of November or thereabouts. It is not a secret that there will be a GE very very soon, the exact date is yet to be published.

You think you can convince those who voted to leave the EU whist we had a good deal to vote for going back in fully integrated? Dear me, OP, what planet are you on?

You don't understand the opposition to the Euro and then list several countries that membership of the Euro has not worked well, that's hardly a convincing argument is it?

We certainly could sit on the sidelines forever if that is what the UK public and Government wanted and that is exactly what was being proposed at the time of the referendum and yet it was defeated in favour of leaving altogether not in favour of becoming even further integrated.

Quietly, I think parliament is relieved. They have had so many opportunities to stop the insanity up until now but chose not to. I feel like they're all paid off to ensure no deal happens (thanks American lobbyists) and more than happy for Boris to take the blame.

I concede that should the UK want to rejoin the EU it would have to be on different terms. However, whilst we were still in we didn't need to go along with Ever Closer Union

How do you propose to stop or change it? If that is indeed what you would like to do.

Whats so bad about the euro then? Why can't we adopt a new currency.

Because it ties us into the EU economy. Whilst there are members with widely diverse economies, that's got the potential for ruining us. Just look at what happened with Greece and Cyprus after they adopted the Euro. Just look at what happened 20-30 years ago when the UK tried to fix its' exchange rate to the Euro. It's fine in theory but when you have economies that aren't in alignment, it's got the potential to bankrupt a country.

You think you can convince those who voted to leave the EU whist we had a good deal to vote for going back in fully integrated? Dear me, OP, what planet are you on?

The whole point of democracy is that it always changes. What's the harm of having a second referendum? You can't have less democracy, by having more democracy. It's a fallacy. This isn't about the leave voters. It's about what financially benefits the politicians.

We certainly could sit on the sidelines forever if that is what the UK public and Government wanted and that is exactly what was being proposed at the time of the referendum and yet it was defeated in favour of leaving altogether not in favour of becoming even further integrated

And this is where will have to disagree, the UK does not have a mandate to sit on the sidelines, kicking off at every last thing, voting down one thing or another, and can still expect to exert any serious influence. The EU works very differently, and is much more powerful than it was. It does not need rebel countries holding it back. Mr Macron is a very big supporter of no deal for a very good reason.

We could have spent eternity sitting on the sidelines and tutting. Many EU countries held our scepticism and hid behind the UK who was very vocal about it. Thing is, EU directives/legislation is made by consensus among the 28 ergo even if they're all integrating we would still have had a voice; an indeed a lot of support. We're actually very instrumental in drafting many EU laws.

What we've done with Brexit is shoot ourselves rather extraordinarily in the foot.

Quietly, I think parliament is relieved. They have had so many opportunities to stop the insanity up until now but chose not to. I feel like they're all paid off to ensure no deal happens (thanks American lobbyists) and more than happy for Boris to take the blame

On this we could not agree more.

A closer relationship is certainly what is/was coming, regardless of the various shades of support in the UK. It will be easier to achieve now without the UK.

Which is what the Leave campaign highlighted and which is one of the reasons people voted to Leave, the Remain campaign were adamant that the UK would not be bounced into a closer relationship if the UK public did not support it.

The EU has evolved and changed over time and that is one of the things a number of people were sufficiently unhappy about to vote to leave as they could see more of the same and were not on board with it.

"Lib Dems could take the position as official opposition with enough support and donors."
Any party could with *enough support and donors". You probably need to just accept the LibDems will not have enough support to be the opposition party now (and possibly not ever).

"Or labour could adopt their GE campaign to include rejoining, perhaps under even better terms than we have now."
In the same way that the Conservative party has MPs, some of whom support remaining in the EU and some who wish for us to leave, so does the Labour party. It isn't a party issue generally.

Do you think all the people who usually vote Labour but also voted to leave in the EU referendum would still vote Labour under those circumstances? Of course they wouldn't. Some would, as some people are stupid and just vote for a party, regardless of their manifesto, because they always have or because their parents do. I don't think the majority would though.

"We have a GE coming up in just 8 weeks time for goodness sake, no party is making their position clear after brexit"
No party has any real knowledge of what will happen, both good and bad, when we have left the EU. Therefore, no party can make their position clear.

It's life. Not everything is black and white. We just have to be optimistic and make the best of whatever situation we are in.

The BBC really is not the fountain of all knowledge. It is my understanding that the tories are going an GE on or around the 1st of November or thereabouts. It is not a secret that there will be a GE very very soon, the exact date is yet to be published.

Oh, right, ok. Yes, I know there's a lot of speculation, hope and prediction out there. But I read your statement as confirmed fact so I thought it must be breaking news and got excited. Fingers crossed there will be.

The Euro is the election loser. I love the cake and eat it Deal we currently have with the EU but that is going. Please god with some rebranded version of WA and not No Deal. However, if we were to be back in, I would want it in the terms we have now.

We could have spent eternity sitting on the sidelines and tutting

I vehemently disagree. No way. The EU would have been forced into splitting into tiers (you will know this given your position) and we would have been on a lower second tier indefinitely. As the integration ramps up, so the UK would fall further down (unless we are prepared to fully commit)

Now, once the UK have left, the other non committal countries will have to tow the line and concede, thus the tiers will be eliminated, or greatly reduced. The hierarchy of the EU naturally moves within economical prowess, and of course commitment. The UK would lose even more power in this scenario, becoming an outcast.

The EU works very differently, and is much more powerful than it was. It does not need rebel countries holding it back

You are confirming all the tropes that played straight into the hands of the Leave campaign.