AIBU to think the police were out of order?

[Cailleachian]

DS1 (18) has chronic insomnia. A about 6 month back, he started taking nightwalks as a way of wearing himself out and clearing his mind. Sometimes DS2 (17) keeps him company, Tonight, they went out for a walk about 11pm and about 1/2hour later DS2 came bolting in the door, shouting "Mum, Mum, its the police". My first thought was that one of them had got in a fight or been hurt.

I answered the door and a male and female police officer are standing there with DS1. The man asks to come in, telling me that he is here to charge DS2 with breach of the peace.

It transpires that they were stopped by the woman, who was questioning them about why they were walking about and whether they were from a "unit"(?!) when the man came over and started shouting at them and demanding to search them. DS1 was searched, but when DS2 was searched apparently he kept backing away, at which point the man grabbed his hands and pinned him against a wall. DS2 then swore at him repeatedly. Thoughout being told this DS2 is very upset, keeps interrupting the man over minutiae (and at times I felt like was trying to sort out DS1 and DS2's squabbles), but ultimately both of them agree that this is what happened.

In the end he didnt charge him, but to be honest, I'm a bit outraged that he even considered it. I dont know why my sons were stopped (acting suspiciously, out late at night while under 18, area where breakins happen were all reasons I was given). I dont know why he wasnt able to de-escalate a stop and search without physical aggression. And above all I dont understand why he thought it was a child protection issue, given that the only person that assaulted him in the street at night was the policeman himself.

Go-on Mumsnet, give me your best pearl clutching.

Someone I know has just reported an officer for something very dodgy. I assume he will be sacked.

Not sure why ? Can't be precedent.

Are your boys NT? Because I’d be wondering why my 17 and 18 year old couldn’t handle this better, like the adults they’re supposed to be?

My friends who have or had worked in the Met have always given me the impression it's too hard to complain about the conduct of others.

@MrsBethel no you couldn’t ask me to take my hands out of my pocket, nor could the queen. You could ask however unless you showed me authority I would refuse.

He refused to empty his pockets, couldn’t see what was in his pockets is legal ground for a Police Officer to have reasonable suspicion to conduct a search when refused.

You may not like that, knife crime has risen sharply partly due to a drop in stop and searches.

FAQs, please take your hands out of your pockets.

There, I asked you.

I agree OP, even though I worked in the system I definitely veer to the side of civil liberties. There was no reason your boys were stopped if their story is the full story, of course.

Okay dokey.

My son is not NT and regularly walks around our quiet town at night, and in the surrounding countryside. For his own safety, we have practised what to say and do if questioned by the police or other offended and suspicious adults. Comply, survive intact, repeat that you are autistic and want to phone your mum in a calm, non-threatening voice. Keep your hands still and in clear view.
It’s worked well the few times he’s had to use the script. Sometimes the police, sometimes community police, neighbourhood watch and a few officious civilians.
It’s a life skill.

From the police website (my highlighting):

A police officer might stop you and ask:
-what your name is
-what you’re doing in the area
-where you’re going
You don’t have to stop or answer any questions. If you don’t and there’s no other reason to suspect you, then this alone can’t be used as a reason to search or arrest you.

Without outing my previous position I can count on more than one hand the number of officers sacked, demoted and sentenced to custodial for their misconduct in office and crimes. Sadly some do escape punishment and many of the witnesses to these cases are the officers peers.

There are units included surveillance dedicated to investigating complaints. Within this are additional sterile corridors of restricted knowledge.

As is the case with the adversarial system should a case progress to this stage sometimes it depends who’s barristers are most effective or the day.

@MrsBethel www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/25/2004-01-01

The OP's son is under 18. The onus is firmly on the officers involved to ensure that he understood what was happening. Their own guidance tells them to ensure they take necessary steps to descalate the situation when dealing with youngsters.

As it stands they appear to be admitting that they searched an under 18 without his consent or understanding, without a responsible adult present (his brother hardly counts when he's also being searched), threatened to charge him with an offence he hadn't committed and then took them home only after being told his age but again without his consent to be taken home. Again, this breaches all their guidance and they should have simply let them on their way or checked that it was appropriate to take them home. Seems like the male police officer forgot what side of safeguarding he is supposed to be on.

Where does their age breach guidelines @blistory

Gosh, O I wonder why there aren't more police patrols about helping to stop burglaries or knife crime . If only police could be trained to recognize MIDDLE CLASS BOYS, who obviously wouldn't be out stealing and robbing...

What is wrong with people?!? Its not 'entitled' to ask for a search receipt when your child was pushed up against the wall and searched by police. It is possible to be angry at your son for not cooperating and swearing whilst simultaneously trying to sort out whether the officer acted appropriately or not. It's for everyones safety that officers are properly trained to deal with situations. It's not entitlement to expect to be treated decently by the police ffs... what sort of a world do people suggesting thus want to live in?

@kriss yes the offices should provide a stop and search doc for the protection and to provide an explanation to the person/s searched, it’s also of benefit to the officer and for research purposes to establish how effective they are. I think the person searched has up to six months to apply for a copy but I’m not 100% certain on the timescale.

*officers

@mmmcflurrys
Your sons were doing nothing wrong

The police didn't know that, did they? The police weren't there for no reason. They were undercover, patrolling. Something every person wants them to do to prevent crime or catch criminals!

Behave like an abusive twat, get treated like one would be a very good lesson for your 17 year old to learn.

I hope none of the police haters on here ever need their help.

Do you not think your son's behaviour was pretty poor OP? 1 son behaved and was fine. The other acted pretty awfully.
I'd really rather these police officers were left to get on with catching criminals rather than searching for receipts about bratty boys.

@Krisskrosskiss
It's not entitlement to expect to be treated decently by the police ffs... what sort of a world do people suggesting thus want to live in?

I for one want to live in a world where I am safe, where the police can crack on and do their jobs without being fearful of being stabbed by a teen with a shitty attitude who's mother bleats on about making sure a piece of paper detailing why they may have been stopped is produced. From the OPs info, the boys were treated correctly. One PO identified herself, the boys were asked to take their hands out of their pockets (where they may have had a concealed weapon,) one refused. The other PO shouted across the road as he was still in his vehicle. Boy continued to refuse, swore at POs, backed away. So he was restrained. I have no issue with that action. If it had been any of my children, I'd still have no issue.
Please don't speak for all of us when you're challenging legitimate actions.

@NovemberWitch
Absolutely spot on, every parent regardless of NT or not should teach this.

I'd be pretty weary if stopped at night by an unmarked car and plain clothes officers.

And since you describe your older DS as an adult I assume he has a job and respects authority at work.

Is this the definition of an adult? I guess I still have some growing up to do!

So WHY didn't your son take his hands out of his pockets and WHY did he back away from being searched?