To want to know exactly what LGBT teaching in schools will entail?

[Toorahtoorahaye]

There has been lots of attention around the push to teach LGBT issues in schools - Birmingham being the flash point with many parents protesting. AIBU to have doubts about what is going to be taught and to want to know which orgs will be providing the material and exactly what this material teaches?

@FamilyOfAliens - I don't know why 'queer' became so popular, and I don't terribly like it. It might relate to 'queer theory' becoming an academic term, I suppose. Does it matter?

My DD has just started high school and I can see from the timetable her first PSHE lesson is next week. I'm not sure when these topics will come up but like the OP I want to be ahead of the game and I understand what they could be discussing.

I've been thinking about emailing school to ask what their planned content for the rest of the year is and details of external sources who have been involved in material. I too have concerns about Stonewall and Mermaids specifically.

Or will I mark myself out as "that" patient in week 1?!!

I want to be ready to potentially counteract any misinformation, shall we say, as DD has a tendency not to question teachers/other adults but will bloody argue till blue in the face with me. She needs to know to be inclusive of everyone regardless of how they choose to present (not an issue with her at all as this mirrors what we talk about at home) but she has to know that her boundaries and dignity are protected in law. And that biology can't change.

Hopefully as much focus will be on consent, boundaries and respect within any sexual relationship as could be spent on other topics but that's another thread.

Thanks in advance and OP, sorry for tagging onto your thread You've started a really important discussion.

SarahAndQuack the point is that disrupting conventional social practices shouldn't be something taught in primary schools. For some of those children, school represents the only stability in their life. Queer theory might be interesting to university academics, but it doesn't belong in schools.

Did you see Dr Em's articles about queer theory?
uncommongroundmedia.com/the-trojan-unicorn-queer-theory-and-paedophilia-part-i--dr-em/

Not sure why so many people are telling her to just "ask your school", or why some are making out that she's a bigot because she's not just concerned about her own school

OP said they didn't want their child being taught certain things as fact by their school. The best way to see if that is going to be the case is to ask the school what their approach is. OP will probably be pleasantly surprised as I don't know any schools that are doing it this way. However if OPs children's school are teaching it as fact then she can address it. So the starting point is the school.

If OP has issues about other schools teaching it as fact and chooses mumsnet as the place to get advice from then OP is probably best to visit the feminism boards.

I don't think OP is necessarily a bigot, I think many parents wouldn't want their football loving daughter to be told she must be a boy. My experience of schools is that this isn't happening. Our primary school teaches about different families but doesn't go along with stereotypes at all, in fact it does the absolute opposite.

The teaching provided by lobby groups like Mermaids is very dangerous. I don't want to do a TAAT but in Feminism Chat we've heard from teachers who have been dismayed to hear from relatively young and uneducated children that people can easily and literally change sex, having got this impression from Mermaids training materials. It really is like a religion, with children learning that people can be "born into the wrong body", which suggests a belief in gendered souls. I wouldn't accept this being taught to any DC of mine. It has nothing to do with accepting LGB rights and unconventional families, with which I have every sympathy.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

The message is absolutely NOT just because a boy wears dresses, he must be a girl. That’s one of the first questions we discuss actually- does wearing a dress make a child a girl? The book is used as a stimulus to discuss what transgender means, acceptance, what to do if we hear others saying negative remarks etc.

Thanks AriadneCrete that's what I would hope. It's easy to take a superficial message from the reading material used in schools - I've seen so many books about boys who want to be princesses, girls who want short hair and then become boys - that it's easy to assume the discussions will be stereotypical and superficial too, especially when you have messages like the ones from Mermaids with their gender spectrum. Preferences for clothes, toys, appearances do not mean you are a boy or a girl, only your physical sex does that.
I'd be interested to know how you discuss transgender identities with children - what exactly does it mean to feel like a boy or a girl, especially at such a young age?!

Got to add my horrified voice that a school is using I am Jazz as a teaching aid. I don't normally tag but @AriadneCrete, please can you return and explain exactly how this text is being used?

@oldcrone - I entirely agree queer theory doesn't belong in primary school.

That's why I've already said it on this thread, no?

However, luckily for all of us, queer theory isn't being taught in primary schools. It's not even being taught to the OP, who has no clue what it is.

And, that piece you posted by 'Dr Em' is such utter bullshit.

You might as well say 'ugh, all gay men are paedos and I've proved it by looking at the intersection between the PIE back in the day, and gay men'.

But Adrian the book is described as one of the first books from the perspective of a transgender child. So is this boy transgender because they wear dresses? If yes then the link between dresses and being transgender is obviously there.

She needs to know to be inclusive of everyone regardless of how they choose to present (not an issue with her at all as this mirrors what we talk about at home) but she has to know that her boundaries and dignity are protected in law. And that biology can't change.

And why I mistrust Stonewall- they are telling schools how to operate in a way that possibly rides over boundaries and gatekeeping. Why and who gave them the power to do this?

@SarahAndQuack
However, luckily for all of us, queer theory isn't being taught in primary schools.

You can download one of the research papers about the 'No Outsiders' project here.
No Outsiders: Researching approaches to sexualities equality in primary schools

9. How might queer theory inform classroom practice?
This question strongly informed much of our discussion and analysis...Some team members explored the possibility of creating non-normative learning environments through a process of questioning or troubling established norms of sexuality and gender.

This was about bringing queer theory into the primary classroom. Not teaching queer theory, but using it to confuse young children.

Oh, for pity's sake.

That is not about teaching queer theory, is it?

Nor are five year olds being introduced, solemnly, to the principles of auditory/cognitive processing when they're taught phonics.

If you are genuinely concerned about poor confused children struggling with the idea that two women might be mummies together, I am sorry for you. However, I will continue to feel quite happy that my child isn't going to be subjected to a school system that is forbidden from teaching about 'pretended family relationships' such as lesbianism, and that she will not therefore grow up 'confused' about why her loving mums are being stigmatised by ignorant bigots.

You might as well say 'ugh, all gay men are paedos and I've proved it by looking at the intersection between the PIE back in the day, and gay men'.

You seem to have misunderstood what actually happened. PIE infiltrated the gay rights movement int the 70s in order to try to normalise paedophilia. The argument then was around age of consent - gay rights activists wanted the age of consent for gay people to be the same as for heterosexuals. PIE wanted to do away with the age of consent altogether. Many 'progressive' left wing people were taken in by PIE and by doing so were seen to advocate for paedophilia themselves.

People who see themselves as 'progressive' do sometimes seem to have a problem seeing where progressive stops and abuse starts.

I know what happened.

That's my point.

If you are genuinely concerned about poor confused children struggling with the idea that two women might be mummies together, I am sorry for you.

Have you read anything I've written here? This is about children being taught that 'gender identity' is something real, that they can be 'born in the wrong body' and that people can change sex.

the point is that some people who advocate the reduction or removal of the age of consent are now also very vocal TRAs, and we know that some TRA activity is about the removal of safeguarding around children. So, for example, saying that anyone who identifies as trans should be allowed to use the bathroom that they choose is counter to both the law and safeguarding.

My DD in Yr3 had some PSHE class last term. We received a letter about it and it said if we had any concerns to contact them. I asked for the lesson plan and they sent me through all the slides. I had a look and was happy with all the slides, it was all quite mild. As far as I can recall there was no transgender stuff at her age (age 8). I am GC and discuss things with my DS who is 16. He is of my viewpoint. And for DD she is hearing my views but has her own. I am just going to try and keep talking about everything with them , and where things are bollocks. For example the other day we were walking down the road and passed a mother with her two young sons , one wearing a dress. Now, I’ve seen this lad in girls clothes before (and also boys clothes) . It is definitely a male child . She asked me if he was a boy, or a boy who thinks he’s a girl. I said he was a boy who chooses to wear a dress and that’s fine , and we discussed clothes and who wears what etc. She is aware of differences in biology. I want her to be accepting of differences in people of course but also keep her boundaries and not be bullied into having certain views.

I know what happened.

So you know that the problem with PIE wasn't gay people, it was paedophiles using gay rights to gain access to children. Has it not occurred to you that we are seeing the same thing with paedophiles using trans rights to gain access to children?

Yes, I've read all of your posts, which is a courtesy you don't seem to have extended to mine.

I think you are one of the many people on here who have got caught up in imagining they are very, very clever to have 'caught out' trans activists.

But you don't even begin to understand the terminology you're using or the concepts you're attacking.

If this were any other subject - say, conspiracy theories about poor Maddie McCann or the Holocaust - you would be shocked by idiots who read someone calling themselves 'Dr Em' on the internet and coming up with concoctions of 'evidence'.

Yet for some reason, when the subject is trans* or LGBT-related, you swallow it all and think it makes you special. It's really weird, and really unpleasant.

OldCrone

Do you know of any actual cases of primary schools introducing queer theory in any way?

I have children/nephews//nieces and friends children at various schools all over the UK. Their lessons have all been very similar and nothing about queer theory, nothing about changing sex etc has ever been even mentioned.

I'm also concerned op. Some years ago I read some research that showed a physiological change in the brains of young children when they are exposed to sexual images or concepts when they are too young. I can't find that study now, IV been trying to find it for a while, I remember it showed a link to these changes with sexual degenerency later on.
My youngest will be home educated from the start.

People can, and do, change gender.
Why is this such a bad thing to teach children?
My 4 year old knows all about differing relationships, we taught her that love is love....gay or heterosexual. She knows about drag and is aware that a friend of the family used to be a girl but is now a man. She doesn't care.
I don't see how this can be so wrong.

@ThatDoctorEM
Just to let you know I mentioned your essays on here and have been told they're 'bullshit'. You may or may not want to get involved here, but it seems wrong to discuss you and your work without letting you know.

@SarahAndQuack I'll go back and read your posts again to see what I missed first time. But I don't understand how you can read my posts and see homophobia there. I don't believe in gender identity and the associated ideology. Gender identity ideology actually denies that homosexual relationships exist, since it turns sexuality into same or opposite 'gender' attraction. According to gender identity ideology men can be lesbians if they say they are.