To want to know exactly what LGBT teaching in schools will entail?

[Toorahtoorahaye]

There has been lots of attention around the push to teach LGBT issues in schools - Birmingham being the flash point with many parents protesting. AIBU to have doubts about what is going to be taught and to want to know which orgs will be providing the material and exactly what this material teaches?

Just been looking at that gingerbread spectrum poster thing upthread that has been linked to and derided.
I'm torn, as I can see where people are coming from when they say they have an issue about their kids being taught pink is girly, trucks and blue is boys etc. You can like what you like regardless of your sex!
On the other hand though, if that was taught to me when I was at school, I'd have been on the boys end - hated anything so called girly.
I'd have still known I was a girl though, I wouldn't have thought "must be a boy then", I knew I was a girl and never wanted to be an actual boy.
The problem comes when you know you're not the same inside I suppose, I mean people aren't suddenly going to think I'm a boy then if they like dinosaurs, trucks, blue, short hair etc...
which some people seem to think is what will inevitably happen.

Just thinking out loud so hope that made some sort of sense lol

I'm torn, as I can see where people are coming from when they say they have an issue about their kids being taught pink is girly, trucks and blue is boys etc. You can like what you like regardless of your sex!
Yes, this is precisely what many FWR women say about gender. Do you see why we find the notion that Barbie-GI Joe preferences denote your sex so ridiculous (offensive) now?

On the other hand though, if that was taught to me when I was at school, I'd have been on the boys end - hated anything so called girly.
I'd have still known I was a girl though, I wouldn't have thought "must be a boy then", I knew I was a girl and never wanted to be an actual boy.
What would make you know you were a girl though? Even thinking back retrospectively through your adult lens?
(I know I am a woman because I have the bits and bobs that make me female and the definition of woman is "adult human female" (tick, tick, tick). I don't have some internal lady essence like a cloud of perfume around me. I just am. Does not having that inexplicable, unquantifiable mystical gender essence does that make me any less a woman?)

Probably that people are people and they come in all shapes sizes genders and sexual orientations and that you as a citizen of the Uk children are entitled to figure out where you fit into this without fear. Love is love and comes in many forms, including how each family may ‘look’ and that is a wonderful thing 👍

What would make you know you were a girl though? Even thinking back retrospectively through your adult lens?

I dunno, obviously my biological bits of course, but I also "knew" inside.
So called girls stuff bored the pants off me -still does tbh-- still knew and felt was a girl though.
No of course it doesn't mean if you don't have that sense that you're less of a woman! It's clear not everyone has it, some do though

Bold function peeing me off today, keeps not bolding correctly ffs lol - top bit is a quote

YANBU.

No issue with learning about the lgb part, but being taught about the gender spectrum? No way.

I find it disturbing and bizarre that anyone in their right mind could ever believe that girls with short hair and playing with trucks are actually boys, and boys dressing up as Elsa are actually girls. It’s crazy.

As in, you're a boy, but you're a girl inside (and vice versa)

How does that work then?

RosesandRaindrops I have no sense of being a woman, I am me.
If I were a teenager now I would be trans.
As it is I am middle aged, do not conform to stereotypes, I am happy with who I am, and I (like many other women) am hugely relieved that i didn’t have my gender issues pathologised and medicalised, as children are now.

They're not going to be teaching about the ins and outs of surgery in primary school for example, are they?

This is the problem. Children in primary school are being taught that they can choose their sex. We know this is happening, because there are primary age children who 'socially transition'. These children aren't taught about the surgery because that isn't 'age appropriate'. But that is the consequence of their social transition if they continue with it.

Children who are too young to understand about surgery and medication and all the consequences regarding fertility and sexual function should not be allowed to 'socially transition'. They should be told that their sex is fixed, but they can wear what they want and play with whatever toys they want. Anyone who is too young to understand the term 'sexual function' shouldn't be transitioning, even socially.

Biological bits? But schools are now being instructed to drop language that connects biological bits as belonging to a certain sex/gender. So kids are basically being taught that a penis isn’t a boy part and that boys can have vaginas too. That a lesbian couple can be 2 women who just happen to have penises (and beards if that’s their choice). Language we use for biology and social and sexual attractions is being erased or redefined. These charities want kids versed in their belief so they can then go hone and re-educat their wrong thinking parents

Rose your bullshit about feeling like a girl, knowing inside etc is exactly the kind of nonsense I do not want taught to my child, or any child. It's extremely sexist and has no place in a classroom in 2019.

(Oh, and you did just simply misread (or not bother to read) the whole post that you then commented on, that the OP posted.)

So called girls stuff bored the pants off me -still does tbh-- still knew and felt was a girl though. No of course it [lack of essence feeling] doesn't mean if you don't have that sense that you're less of a woman! It's clear not everyone has it, some do though

OK, so you "feel" something and I don't. Surely it's sensible to agree that it makes it a very unsuitable basis for classification then? Especially when there is a rock-solid factual alternative (biological sex) that's been in use for millenia?

I think(?) we also agree that people should be free to like/wear/be anything they like without judgment. So again that points to us dropping "gender" because that is the thing that adds the unhelpful and damaging labels. Why can't men wear ballgowns and purple eyeliner and carry handbags without anyone batting en eyelid when they peeing into a urinal? Why can't women smoke a pipe, wear a 3 piece suit and trilby and be as unremarkable as the women next to them also waiting for their smear test (and anywhere either side of those silly examples)

So kids are basically being taught that a penis isn’t a boy part and that boys can have vaginas too

See, maybe it's just me, but that's not how I'm reading that though - I'm interpreting that as they're still saying boys have penises, girls have vaginas - just that to be more inclusive, they're letting children know that if you're trans then it might not always correlate, that it's OK to be trans and have the "bits" you do.
Doesn't make you any less if you don't "match up."

Rose your bullshit about feeling like a girl, knowing inside etc is exactly the kind of nonsense I do not want taught to my child, or any child

It's MY experience though, it is true for ME, and obviously others, the fact you just dismiss others as bullshit without actually engaging with other opinions says a lot.

Roses, you have missed the memo. People are categorically being told exactly that as some kind of new scientific discovery -

First google result (of thousands): twitter.com/pinknews/status/1097937648226840576?lang=en

And let's not forget our good friend Muscato who is a prominent trans person who claims they are female: twitter.com/daniellemuscato/status/839611526998818817?lang=en

Rose so explain that experience, the experience of 'feeling like a girl'. How do you articulate that?

OK, obviously not agreeing with what Danielle Muscato has said in that tweet (vile thing to say) but where did the tweet say biologically female? Just means that transwomen can have them, surely?

I personally don’t think it’s ok to be a trans child.
Being a child and then a teenager can be very difficult for some (maybe they’re autistic, gay, have experienced abuse or trauma), they need help and understanding.
Affirming gender issues kind of passes the buck from professionals actually doing anything productive for the child.
The trans issue is usually covering up other stuff which needs to be dealt with.

Plus no one can change sex. I don’t want my child to be taught lies.

See, maybe it's just me, but that's not how I'm reading that though - I'm interpreting that as they're still saying boys have penises, girls have vaginas - just that to be more inclusive, they're letting children know that if you're trans then it might not always correlate, that it's OK to be trans and have the "bits" you do.

Is it just me or does this really not make any sense at all?

Roses do some research on Danielle Muscato. And note that the hashtag on that tweet was International Women's Day, not International Transwomen's Day. And know that DM tweeted that from a women's refuge.

RosesAndRaindrops "OK, obviously not agreeing with what Danielle Muscato has said in that tweet (vile thing to say) but where did the tweet say biologically female? Just means that transwomen can have them, surely?"

I'm engaging with you in good faith as I think we actually agree.

The trans mantra is that tw ARE women. No less than a human born female; and to even suggest otherwise is transphobic and hateful and bigoted. The fact you are even questioning his comments is just as bad (in their eyes).

So D Muscato, a tw, is, ergo a woman, with a female penis.
Women who have spoken out against Muscato and their claims (and similar) have been absolutely slayed as transphobic bigots and threatened with all manner of rape, death, violence.

Have you also heard of the cotton ceiling? Put bluntly, it is a phrase that indicates those tw trying to force lesbian women to have sex with their male bodies - to "get over their genital fetish" in their language.

And that's before I even get on to the guides which explain how lesbians should "eat out" pre-op tw (i.e. those with penises, of which the majority of tw retain, btw). All of this language has insidiously worked to couch the male sex organ as a female body part, by sole virtue of this undefineable inner essence the bearer claims to have.

www.vice.com/en_us/article/594mak/how-to-eat-out-a-non-op-trans-woman-oral-sex
medium.com/@mirandayardley/girl-dick-the-cotton-ceiling-and-the-cultural-war-on-lesbians-and-women-c323b4789368

I know it's horrible reading, and you may find it uncomfortable because I do believe you had positive assumptions and that many of the people in this thread were just being nasty for no real reason. But hopefully some of this will expose the rather grim underbelly of the activist movement we're opposing.

I forgot to add Riley Dennis's claims too. Riley is another very prominent spokesperson for the trans community whose comments have not been discredited or argued against AFAIK:

(excerpt from transcript of video on this page

"If you’re a woman who only likes women, go ahead, identify as a lesbian! But some women have penises."
"I’m trying to show that preferences for women with vaginas over women with penises"

See? The constant pressure of "female penis" into everyday language and societal acceptance.

everydayfeminism.com/2017/04/cissexist-say-never-date-trans/

I am a teacher. Last term I had to disabuse a very clever Y9 girl of the notion that men can have babies. I think that she understood me in the end although told me (initially) that I was 'mean' to state that transmen are biological women and that no man ever could gestate and give birth to a child. Girls are socialised to be 'kind' and accomodating to boys and men and will accept this stuff to be seen to be inclusive and kind without really thinking it through.

I do think that children misunderstand a lot of the info that they have access to online and all parents and teachers would be very naive to underestimate the influence this has on them.
LGBT teaching guidelines should give us all pause for thought though. LGB are sexual orientations - trans is not.
The 1950s stereotypes which accompany this ideology are hugely damaging to boys and girls (especially girls).
Stonewall and Mermaids imo are political lobby groups which should not be allowed to advise or go in to schools promoting such contentious ideology.
Telling girls to ignore their instincts when a boy who thinks he is a girl is given access to their safe spaces is abusive behaviour and I have no words for the people who claim that a penis can be female.

We teach all of our students to be kind and accepting of others. The powerful trans lobby has a very loud voice and an alarmingly long reach and all of us need to be watchful about what is taught in schools with reference to trans issues. My main fear is for the asd girls who seem to be attracted to this like moths to a flame - we are failing them if they end up on lifelong medication with their bodies altered forever all because they felt like they did not 'fit in'.

Roses, it’s nice that you as a child would not have been confused or distressed by the girls pink boys blue nonsense, and would not have applied it literally to your own circumstances. How do you think the same scenario might play out for a child with asd?
(And does that question seem to you to be an important one?)

Personally I'm very supportive of the fact that LGBT issues are discussed in schools from a young age, in the context of different families, acceptance, tolerance etc.
I'm concerned about the fact that talking about gender identities could be a lazy way for gender stereotyping to become even more entrenched in society than it is currently - I had hoped we were moving away from the 'girls like pink, wear dresses and have long hair; boys like sport and blue and wear shorts' approach.
It's the gender stereotyping which I think is potentially damaging to children and young people; I'm also concerned about the comfort and autonomy of young women who may have to share spaces with young males and not be allowed to protest against it. But that's not relevant to primary.
It's a broad spectrum (!) of issues¬