To want to know exactly what LGBT teaching in schools will entail?

[Toorahtoorahaye]

There has been lots of attention around the push to teach LGBT issues in schools - Birmingham being the flash point with many parents protesting. AIBU to have doubts about what is going to be taught and to want to know which orgs will be providing the material and exactly what this material teaches?

I’m happy with opinions being expressed.

It’s not me who’s promoting #nodebate.

Oh dear Bosh, you need to get back to school. Biology lessons.
No one can change their sex

OK, where did Bosh say that they could magically change sex?
In fact the opposite was said, that they AREN'T going to come back from school and say that they can magically change sex just because they've been taught about trans!

JustAVoidReally

Totally agree. What the hell is going on!

Where are all the middle-aged women transitioning?

Just because you don't hear about them as much on social media or in the news, doesn't mean they're not out there.
I mean, nobody seems to have a problem with them in these types of threads, do they? It always focuses on the transwomen.
You seriously believe there aren't many just because they don't always shout loudly on the internet or get involved in online discussions?
Um, that's strange way of looking at it if so.

Children do not decide to be trans because they heard about it at school! Your children are not going to come home and say 'hey, I heard at school that I could "magically become another sex" so I thought I'd go through years of counselling, spend thousands and thousands of pounds and become another sex, even though I identify with my biological sex'
Raindrops, quick lesson in comprehension skills for you. In the paragraph above, Bosh is describing the transition process.

Also, thats just not what is being taught or how children think.

What is being taught is; ''if you like short hair and blue and dinosaurs you could be a boy, and if you like pink and glitter you could be a girl, because that's how people know they are trans''.

Raindrops when I see middle aged women walking into the men’s demanding to use urinals, hanging around men’s changing rooms wittering on about queues, demanding TopMan open their changing rooms to them, donning balaclavas to chant Transmen are Men, then I’ll think about all those hordes of AGP middle aged women transitioning.

@yeahnahyeah great video thanks for posting.

In the paragraph above, Bosh is describing the transition process

Yes, I know.
You are missing where Bosh is saying though (I think is, anyway as I'm obvs not Bosh) that just because they learn about it in schools, that they can transition, doesn't mean they're going to biologically become one.
I mean, surely anybody sane can tell children that they can't biologically become the opposite sex?! Even if they do transition properly when older, it doesn't mean "tada, you're now a biological woman or man?!"
That they're not going to go through all that just as a fad or because their mate has like was also implied upthread?
That comes across awfully as don't teach them about trans as they'll all want to do it.

I mean, surely anybody sane can tell children that they can't biologically become the opposite sex?! Even if they do transition properly when older, it doesn't mean "tada, you're now a biological woman or man?!"

I hope you complained to ITV about their series 'Butterfly' where the message at the end was exactly that - that the little boy could grow up to be a woman just like his mum.

No, it's not school, and it wasn't meant to be an educational programme, but some people (particularly children) do take away messages like that as being fact.

No, I’m not missing anything but you’re very keen to teach kids about trans at any cost. Why is that?
What is so special about this identity vs say kids who have an unpopular hobby that all need to be taught about it? Do kids who love train spotting expect others to learn about it so they don’t feel left out? They don’t need to learn about trans as a distinct entity because its irrelevant when all kids are taught to be tolerant and accepting of others.

so what's the transition? From masculine to feminine? Why does that even need to be discussed then - no one should care (and or does care, in fact) if you want to dress according to the social mores of the opposite sex - that's easily dealt with by teaching that gender is a load of nonsense that can happily be ignored. And then you don't get to impose speech restrictions on people or say that girls have to share the loos with boys or play rugby with boys.

Basically, you teach that no one gives a shit about your gender identity, none of us are part of your validation and now can we get on with maths.

Tbf I’m not sure which part of the scenario could be said to be to blame for him being excluded. But I think it’s fair to say that had he not expressed an opinion that went against the school’s view of what’s acceptable, he would not have been sent out of the classroom.

That could be said of anything though. If a pupil gets sent out of a maths lesson say, for continually trying to argue with a teacher about Brexit say, (when said teachewr has made it clear they do not want to discuss it and wants to just get on with the lesson) well that could be presented as kids being excluded for questioning Brexit.

I mean, surely anybody sane can tell children that they can't biologically become the opposite sex?! Even if they do transition properly when older, it doesn't mean "tada, you're now a biological woman or man?!"

The only immovable facts are that you cannot change chromosomes, and no medical procedure will convert an XX to an XY and vice versa.

The rest of it is ultimately about wordplay and the meanings we attach to concepts, and is a matter of ideology.

In otherwords, no-one should object to telling children that you cannot change chromosomes, but telling them that they cannot become boys / girls / other is an ideology which can be as contraversial as any other can be. Depends on the zeitgeist I guess.

Wurzel you could probably include autism in that too.

teaching children from an early age about autism would I think be beneficial. For autistic people. If the teaching was good. But no one gives a shit about them, as we well know.
The men who want into the ladies bogs - now, they’re the people we really should be doing stuff for. I really must get my priorities right.

No, I’m not missing anything but you’re very keen to teach kids about trans at any cost. Why is that?

Where the heck have I said at any cost? I haven't.
I've actually said age appropriate. Which it will be in school.
They're not going to be teaching about the ins and outs of surgery in primary school for example, are they?
I have no problem with my kids being taught that some people are born different, but that's OK - I want them to be tolerant of others, whether it be lesbian, gay, trans.
I'd rather they knew it was OK to be "different" (for want of a better word) than grow up not knowing anything about them or fearing the unknown or thinking there was something wrong with them if they turned out to be themselves. Which is what they'll be teaching in schools.

I mean, surely anybody sane can tell children that they can't biologically become the opposite sex?! Even if they do transition properly when older, it doesn't mean "tada, you're now a biological woman or man?!"

No, they do actually. Males can become women and not just women but biologically female.

To clarify as reading my post back it's clumsy to say the least ... to be clear I didn't mean to equate autism to a hobby as I'm sure is obvious although I'm sure certain posters will pounce on that had I not clarified.

What I meant was to give an example of a medically recognised condition which affects many kids but is misunderstood leading to intolerance and prejudice. It's fairly low on the pecking order of "kids we need to include".

No, they do actually. Males can become women and not just women but biologically female

Um...... really hoping your sarcasm is not showing up in the written word or your attempt at humour is failing if you actually think people can biologically change sex.

try reading the whole of what the OP was commenting on, Roses. People can and do tell children that they can change sex. Simply by calling a girl a boy is doing that, changing pronouns to that of the opposite sex is doing that.

Basically, you teach that no one gives a shit about your gender identity, none of us are part of your validation and now can we get on with maths.

That'd only work though if you "didn't give a shit about their gender identity" if you (general you!) genuinely didn't give a shit about their identity.
As in, you're a boy, but you're a girl inside (and vice versa) so no I don't mind and believe you.
But it doesn't work like that for some, does it? It's a case of No, I don't give a shit about your identity but that's only if you accept you're really a boy, now get on with your Maths....

No, they do actually. Males can become women and not just women but biologically female

Um...... really hoping your sarcasm is not showing up in the written word or your attempt at humour is failing if you actually think people can biologically change sex.

(Of course pp was being sarcastic) This is the issue. All this supposedly "age appropriate" guidance is telling young children that "men can become women".

The nuance that what they actually mean is that "the biological category of males can put on clothes and make up and perform stereotypically societal behaviors associated with the biological category of female, but of course that doesn't mean that bio male becomes a bio female" is lost.

If you are a kid you don't understand that, why would you. You hear "men become women" and go with that as literally as it sounds.

Same way we let children call foals "baby horses", because we know they understand the simple concepts of babies and horses and we'll teach them what this new word of "foal" is another day. Or we let them talk about the "baby growing in mummy's tummy", because it's not vital to their world they know right there and then the detailed nuance and difference between a foetus and a bay; or the fact it is developing in the uterus not growing in the tummy.

try reading the whole of what the OP was commenting on, Roses

It was a comment bolded and quoted in reply to what I said. Nothing else. If it was to something upthread as well it wasn't made clear.

It's been interesting to read so many of the people protesting against OP going on to list things that are considered highly transphobic/literal violence/bigoted.

Of course they are not transphobic, but we are?

Debates about other school subjects. For me, the analogy is the many, many MN debates about RE. In the old days, it WAS about indoctrination but, of course, these days, children learn ABOUT different religions, which I think is both interesting and important, and about debating issues and critical thinking.

To be blunt, the trans lobby are, for the most part, pushing an ideology, as Family explained, we aren't assigned anything at birth and so on. And to top it off, we're told there's no debate. And they've somehow persuaded our government to do it!

For me, this really isn't right.