To want to know exactly what LGBT teaching in schools will entail?

[Toorahtoorahaye]

There has been lots of attention around the push to teach LGBT issues in schools - Birmingham being the flash point with many parents protesting. AIBU to have doubts about what is going to be taught and to want to know which orgs will be providing the material and exactly what this material teaches?

I read the "but when you start saying" post as more of a general you rather than you in particular? You seem to be in agreement with those posts though even if it wasn't you so as Sarah said if you aren't your communication isn't coming across that way.

Roses - you keep claiming yourself that folk here are equaling trans folk to abusers, you keep bringing folk having the same attitudes to those who supported section 28 which is insinuating homophobia, closed mindedness and bigotry. You’ve been pretty insulting yourself.

you keep bringing folk having the same attitudes to those who supported section 28 which is insinuating homophobia, closed mindedness and bigotry

Some of it is though.
If you're finding the statement insulting, it wasn't personally at you.

I should probably have used 'one' instead of 'you'.

I do think there is a MN trend, that's gone from 'hmm, are there feminist concerns to be had here?' to 'OMG we are all Spartacus! Cool! Fight the Conspiracy!'

SarahAndQuack I think there is an interesting discussion to be had about what children should and shouldn't be taught in school. The problem I had about queer theory and disrupting social norms is that I don't think this belongs in primary schools. Children first need to understand how society works before they can start to explore how it might be different and how they might want to change it.

Lesbians and gay men don't 'disrupt' anything, is that it?

Now? In 2019? No, I don't think they do. They are now part of society in the same way as heterosexual people are. They can get married and are protected in law from discrimination. I said earlier that I view a lesbian couple with children as just as unremarkable as a heterosexual couple with children. I assume that is the view of most reasonable people.

It suggests you don't want anyone teaching children to 'disrupt'.

I'm really not sure what you mean by this. School has always been about teaching children about the society they live in and how to be a part of that society. Particularly as teenagers, they can usually find their own way to disrupting through youth movements (hippies, punks, goths). I'm not sure that it should be up to schools to teach this as they're usually too busy trying to stop disruptive children from getting out of control.

Is it the same mindset Roses ? I feel it's unlikely. As I said I spent 10 years working for an HIV charity, one of my closest friends died of Aids. I am bisexual. It's possible I have become a bigot in my forties but seems to me unlikely. Have you looked at stonewall twitter feed lately, there seems to be a lot of people who have concerns, and whilst anyone can be anyone on the internet, it again see unlikely that those exptessing concerns are all straight radical feminists.

expressing.

The problem I had about queer theory and disrupting social norms is that I don't think this belongs in primary schools. Children first need to understand how society works before they can start to explore how it might be different and how they might want to change it.

But what about those children for whom it is their society?

The premise of Section 28 (and sorry, but it is relevant here) was that we shouldn't teach children 'pretended family relationships'. And the worry was that such teaching could influence children to choose such relationships for themselves. However, for those children whose parents were already in same-sex relationships, the implications were very damaging.

What you are advocating (even if you don't intend it) is that all children whose parents live in ways that aren't socially sanctioned should be given to understand their parents are abnormal - at best unmentionable and at worst, dangerous perverts.

And, I'm sorry, but honestly you have no idea about the level of homophobia that persists.

Recently, a lesbian couple was attacked and beaten up. It made the news. You will have seen it. There are large sections of society who are overtly opposed to homosexuality (as reactions to this teaching programme in Birmingham demonstrates). You can be in lovely, affluent, majority-white and middle-class areas and still find people are homophobic bigots who don't recognise your relationship and refuse to talk to you, or refuse to believe you are a family.

I do appreciate you're obviously making an effort to be conciliatory with your last post, so I feel a bit bad saying this - but FFS. How the fuck do you imagine that gay people are accepted just like heterosexuals?!

Oh, and I am much less angry about this, as it really is a matter for debate - but, TBH, I think school should be about disruption. Education is about questioning and learning to ask why. Otherwise, IMO, it's not education but indoctrination.

I said earlier that I view a lesbian couple with children as just as unremarkable as a heterosexual couple with children. I assume that is the view of most reasonable people

Really?! There's loads of homophobic views still out there that don't see same sex families as equal! (Not saying I don't btw) They're definitely discriminated against, even if you see them as unremarkable.

If we didn't educate our children to question then society would be much worse. Bring on the distrupters!

I also think the debate about queer theory in primary is hilarious. As a primary teacher, literally no one I work with has any idea what that is. Who are these random bogey men peddling this stuff you guys are so scared of?! I've never seen them!

Oh, @letsghostdance, you are letting the side down! Without a steady diet of Foucault, how on earth with your pupils learn anything?

If you set yourself up against 'disrupting social conventions,' you are defending anti-LGBT stuff.

Many things disrupt social conventions. Some of those things are positive and some are not.

What about paedophiles? They disrupt social conventions. Do you view their rights as those that we should support?

There are fetishists who like to display their fetishes in public and use other people (including children) as participants in their fetish. They disrupt social conventions. Are we all supposed to be supportive of them?

You can be supportive of LGB people without having to accept all the gender identity stuff. They are not the same thing, just as paedophilia and fetishism are not the same thing.

Yes, you can be supportive of LGB people without accepting 'all the gender identity stuff'. But you're not being. You may think you are, but you've just decided that homophobia is some minor problem and therefore it's unimportant.

Obviously, some disruptions are bad and some are good. No one is disputing that, are they? The issue is whether we think indoctrination is somehow better than teaching children to question and challenge.

@sarahandquack I mean, as long as they listen to me like 75% of the time and finish their maths worksheets then I'm thrilled for them to be tiny world changing rebels!

@OldCrone I mean, to compare pedophiles and trans folk is pretty enormously offensive. It's evident that this isn't the kind of disruption folk here are talking about so this is a pointless and damaging comparison

Can you teach my tiny rebel, please?! (She's two, so you can politely decline.)

But what about those children for whom it is their society?
Which children are those? I've already said that children with gay or lesbian parents are part of established society, so who are you referring to? Nobody on here has suggested that children shouldn't be taught about this. I was just saying that it is no longer 'disrupting'.

What you are advocating (even if you don't intend it) is that all children whose parents live in ways that aren't socially sanctioned should be given to understand their parents are abnormal - at best unmentionable and at worst, dangerous perverts.
I presume you're talking about families where dad has decided he's a woman. Yes, there are problems with that, and I don't know what the solution is. But gaslighting the children by telling them that their dad has changed sex is not the answer.

And, I'm sorry, but honestly you have no idea about the level of homophobia that persists.
No, I probably don't.

I do appreciate you're obviously making an effort to be conciliatory with your last post, so I feel a bit bad saying this - but FFS. How the fuck do you imagine that gay people are accepted just like heterosexuals?!
It's the way I view it, as do all the people around me (family, friends, neighbours). Maybe I should get out more.

OldCrone I mean, to compare pedophiles and trans folk is pretty enormously offensive

This.

You may think you are, but you've just decided that homophobia is some minor problem and therefore it's unimportant.

I have not said that. Of course it's a problem, just as sexism and racism are. I have no idea why you think that I've said that.

Obviously, some disruptions are bad and some are good. No one is disputing that, are they?

Well you did when you said:
If you set yourself up against 'disrupting social conventions,' you are defending anti-LGBT stuff.

Which children are those? I've already said that children with gay or lesbian parents are part of established society, so who are you referring to? Nobody on here has suggested that children shouldn't be taught about this. I was just saying that it is no longer 'disrupting'.

I'm terribly sorry, but you having 'already said' that children of gay or lesbian parents are part of established society doesn't actually make it true.

You are massively, massively ignorant and arrogant.

My child is two, and still we have had people at every step of the way making us feel (and sometimes directly telling us) that we are not a family and she is not our real daughter. There are people who consistently refuse to talk to us or meet our eyes. She has already come across people who outright tell her she can't have two mothers.

I am so angry you think it's ok to say, high-handedly, that because you personally don't believe homophobia exists, therefore children of gay parents don't need any support, and it's all just fine. How dare you.

Which children are those? I've already said that children with gay or lesbian parents are part of established society, so who are you referring to?

I'd have thought about trans seeing as that's what's being discussed along with LGB?
You say children with gay, lesbian parents are part of established society, what about trans though like the poster said?
What if one or both of your parents were trans? Should you not be taught that your family is OK too? Part of established society?

I am much less angry about this, as it really is a matter for debate - but, TBH, I think school should be about disruption. Education is about questioning and learning to ask why. Otherwise, IMO, it's not education but indoctrination.

I totally agree. But I was talking about schools, not education.