To want to know exactly what LGBT teaching in schools will entail?

[Toorahtoorahaye]

There has been lots of attention around the push to teach LGBT issues in schools - Birmingham being the flash point with many parents protesting. AIBU to have doubts about what is going to be taught and to want to know which orgs will be providing the material and exactly what this material teaches?

Silly silly people

What, for having a different opinion, why are we resorting to the you're talking rubbish silly silly people level of discussion lol

No dear, not silly for having a different opinion. Silly for saying silly things.
Does that help?

Yes dear
Bloomin' eck rolling out the patronising now too, shall I head pat to stoop to your level?
People might think you're being a silly billy but they're capable of discussing without playground nonsense.

Perhaps a discussion about gender dysphoria and what that might mean to an individual person. That some people might feel like a boy, but everyone else views them as a girl, and how confusing that might feel, for example when sat boy/girl in a classroom,

Sitting boy/girl in class is totally unnecessary and I can see how this would cause needless anxiety.

or when a boy keeps asking them to be their girlfriend, but he doesn't know they are a boy. (Or vice versa).

This is very difficult, what could /should a school do about this? All children should be taught to take no for an answer and to respect boundaries. Would that be enough to help in this situation?

How it's ok to show compassion to someone who might dress differently to how we expect them to, or feel differently inside.

Absolutely yes.

That it's not very nice to repeatedly ask them what genitalia they have.

Absolutely yes.

My son is not allowed in the girls toilet either, becaus his sex is male. I don't feel as if people are labelling him as an abuser. But then again I understand the reasons behind sex segregation. I also understand that girls and women are human beings and entitled to privacy and dignity.

I've no problem with LGBT teaching whatsoever. Its how the T part is discussed and could then be applied in practice and how it could impact all kids which I find concerning.

Are they, roses? I might hang around for a bit, watch you having a go.
Hell, there’s nowt on telly

Obviously LGBT education should be taught in schools. No one should be made to feel different or less valid because of their orientation, identity or family set up.

Still waiting for someone to justify the accusation people are saying/implying being trans equals being an abuser. This is a classic tactic used to shut down discussion - misrepresenting people so as to claim they are being bigoted and avoiding having to engage with the substance of what is being discussed. Fucking sick of it.

Are they, roses? I might hang around for a bit, watch you having a go

Actually not a clue what you're going on about now sorry.

Not great at holding a thought then, amongst the other difficulties.
No surprises there

Ok, and as I posted that one person has claimed to be happy with LGB but not T.

In a thread of nearly 300 messages, it's remarkable how that only came out just as we were questioning the idea, isn't it?

This whole thread has been about how 'T' is a problem. Didn't you read the OP's posts where she said her problem with this teaching was about 'gender identity' not LGB? You accused me of homophobia when I had said the same thing. I saw one or two posts early in the thread from people who had a problem with all LGBT teaching, but they were a tiny minority.

Why was 'T' ever tagged on to LGB? LGB are sexual orientations, which just describe who you are attracted to. T is something else entirely. It's believing you are, or wishing you were, the opposite sex to the one you actually are (there are other reasons for describing yourself as 'trans', but those only apply to adults, not children, so since we're talking about children I'm not going to mention those). In children, being trans requires lifelong medication and surgery on a physically healthy body. It results in that person becoming infertile, and reduces and even removes their ability to enjoy sexual activity. It has nothing in common with LGB.

Quaffy absolutely and this is where it starts, "Girls don't make a fuss. Be nice" and they start getting the message they aren't important.

Save it crone. They can’t read. Or won’t? So hard to tell.

Always comes back down to the insults, the insinuations, the patronising, instead of engaging properly doesn't it.
Just why?

I think it was you comparing people with issues with trans ideology to those who were pro section 28. I’m sure you intended that to insult. The fact you failed is solely to do with the fact I don’t give a fuck what you and your ilk think. But please don’t whine about insult, it’s just pathetic.

Oh and I’m getting pretty tired of the ‘my child’ rhetoric too. Your child’s feelings about their identity do not trump my child’s right to privacy and dignity. The solution is for more unisex spaces to maintain the dignity of all kids (and adults).

This is exactly what I suggested upthread. Individual changing cubicles for anyone who wants to used them.

The reason I spoke about my child is to try and humanise this conversation. I think sometimes people get passionate about their argument and forget there are actually kids in schools in this situation, being affected by the lack of education/conversation.

And there are also kids in schools like mine who have the potential to be harmed by the conversations, as they are currently being conducted.
And they matter just as much.

oldcrone, I expect I ought to just stop wasting both of our time (and I will, in a minute, go catch up with Bake Off).

I came into this thread seeing people completely fail to understand what queer theory is, and then claiming that children shouldn't be taught to 'disrupt' conventional social practices.

Perhaps you can somehow backtrack and tell me how that's only about trans people? Lesbians and gay men don't 'disrupt' anything, is that it?

I see that you are offended to be accused of being homophobic, and I certainly see you have very different attitudes to trans and LGB people. However, the way you are articulating your objections to LGBT education doesn't suggest you 'only' have an issue with trans people. It suggests you don't want anyone teaching children to 'disrupt'.

That attitude is homophobic.

Me and my ilk, right oookay, you really can't just engage without playground, can you.
I mean WTF.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being concerned about your child being harmed; there's nothing wrong with worrying about Mermaids, who are clearly quite dodgy.

But when you start saying it's all about queer theory being promulgated in schools, and queer theory sanctions paedophilia, and no one should allow children to disrupt social conventions ... that's when you start sounding as if this concern about trans* debates is both a conspiracy theory and a form of reactionary dislike of LGBT people as a group.

If that's not you, then you have a big issue with the way you're communicating.

Sarah, to the impartial reader - which you very clearly are not - the nature of the misgivings crone was expressing were perfectly clear, and it is perfectly clear they are not to do with homophobia.
I understand that smear is useful. I think it’s starting to lose its sting though. People see through it.

I think it was you comparing people with issues with trans ideology to those who were pro section 28.

When I said there was a same attitude to section 28 from some parents and some of the attitudes shown on this thread about children being taught about trans in school, no it wasn't meant as an insult.
It's genuinely the same type of attitude, as in I don't want my child learning about that in school thank you.
Wasn't meant as an insult, even if you took it as one.

(Top sentence was supposed to be bolded as a quote)

Well, I had nothing to say about queer theory, so I think you’ve got the wrong target there. But again, you’re seeing stuff in what crone said that just isn’t there. Maybe you are sincere, but it smacks of the bad faith we si often see in this area.

@TheBigBallOfOil, no, I'm not impartial at all.

I think you are somewhat missing my point.

I know crone - and a lot of MNers - think they are being very clear in their distinction between lesbians and trans people, and they imagine it's obvious to everyone they are defending the rights of lesbians against transwomen (transmen rarely seem to exist).

It's just I don't actually think that distinction works in practice.

If you set yourself up against 'disrupting social conventions,' you are defending anti-LGBT stuff.