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Family fall out dog incident

189 replies

violashift · 26/08/2019 17:19

I didn't see this happen but it has caused a massive extended family fall out on what was a lovely bank holiday.

At cousins house ;my sister and Bil are there with nephew age 5. He is playing in the hall with his brother.
The dog comes in initially wagging tail but within seconds the dog is having a go at my nephew who is about dog height.

My sis filmed all of this as she was filming the kids playing in the hall but dropped the phone when the dog went close to her son.

Pics attached. Brother in law kicked the dog in panic and pulled nephew away.

It all kicked off after that my cousin blaming the brother in law for kicking the dog and refusing to except anything was wrong saying the dog wouldn't hurt him.

Guess I am asking for advice on the next steps. Sis is shaking thinking the dog could have nicked an artery and cousin is annoyed the dog got kicked.

We have all left.

===================

edited by MNHQ - images removed by request

OP posts:
contrary13 · 27/08/2019 09:02

I've spent my entire life around dogs - and that dog? As others have said? Left the mark it intended to. If it wanted to bite into your nephew's neck (as horrific a prospect as that actually is)... then it would have done so, regardless of how blunted by age it's teeth would be at 10 years. Have you ever tried to get a dog's jaw unlocked when it's determined? They're ridiculously strong when locked around... anything. The straight legged bounce it's making looks like it thinks it's joining in with the game, in my opinion - but the sad truth of it is, that it's an animal which shouldn't be joining in with small children's games. Because whether it means to or not, it'll hurt them - be that accidentally or deliberately (because a dog can forget that children are more fragile than puppies/other dogs happen to be).

I have a 13 year old Springer Spaniel who is incredibly tetchy around children - except for my 14 year old, whom he grew up with. He barely puts up with their oddities, and will politely hold himself aloof from them at all times. He was badly teased by a neighbour's children when he was a puppy, though, which is why he does this. I also had to peel toddlers from around his neck and prise their fingers out of his ears when out walking him, on a regular basis - he wouldn't growl at them, though, he'd simply look at me as if to say "I appear to have acquired a limpet, Mother... remove it for me, please!". Had he made any signs of wanting to remove a toddler himself, though... he would have to be destroyed. That's my rule of thumb, I'm afraid, despite the fact that I know my dogs are trained, would only bite if they felt they had no other choice in order to defend themselves, and I would have failed them by allowing the situation to develop in the first place. A child's skin is infinitely thinner than a dog's is - with good reason. A dog needs thick skin to prevent serious injury in fights for dominance. Which no matter how well trained/soppy/daft around kids a dog is... happen. A lot. Even my own two dogs will clash from time to time - usually in very hot weather, or if the younger one is pushing boundaries and the older one is putting them firmly back into place. The term "top dog" exists for a reason.

Your cousin ought to know her own dog's body language - and the fact that this escalated, however quickly, to the stage where its teeth came into contact with a small child's neck... is proof that she doesn't. She needs to retrain herself as a dog owner - and accept responsibility for the fact that she let her dog down, just as much as it's let her down by doing this.

I have a smaller dog, who gets very stressed in certain situations. So I don't put her in those situations, in the same way that I keep my older dog away from other people's children (to the point where I've turned down invitations to family parties where I know there will be children, despite "oh, bring the dog... he'll be fine!" - because I respect his need for peace and not having toddlers clamped around his neck). She doesn't like loud noises, people running, and small dogs (which is ludicrous, really, because she is a small dog!). When we're out, if she recognises any of her stress factors, she will position herself behind me. I become a barrier between her and whatever it is that's frightened her. It alerts me to the fact that she's stressed, and I make sure that her fear isn't elevated any further - ie, to the point where she'd do what your cousin's dog did. They're animals. And size doesn't matter, they all have very powerful jaws which once they clamp onto something? Are nigh on impossible for a human, however panicked, to prise open again. And the more a dog smells fear, the worse it's own primal instincts become. Whilst I completely understand your BIL's panic at what happened, it could have caused the dog to clamp down on your nephew's body - neck, arm, leg - hard enough to puncture flesh... which no one - not even your cousin - wants.

There doesn't have to be a family rift over this - although there will be/already is. Your cousin simply needs to shut her dog away if there are children visiting. A crate, or in another room that children are told to stay out of. Even a 2 year old is capable of understanding that they need to respect a dog's personal space, if an adult explains to them that the dog is old, and a bit grumpy, and wants to sleep rather than get excited by the child's play. And if they're not capable of learning to respect another being's space/needs? Then the child needs to be removed until it is. For their own safety. Either way, the adults need to own their own responsibilities in this situation. Your cousin needs to apologise (profusely) for her dog's behaviour - and think about why it reacted in the way it did (is it in pain, were the screams of playing children too loud for its ears, was it over-stimulated/frightened/stressed by a crowd of people, was it trying to tell the children to stop shrieking...) and not have it roaming around at family parties again. Your sister and BIL need to explain to their children that dogs are animals, and will react accordingly. Your nephew didn't do anything wrong. He's a child. But his parents are just as culpable as your cousin is for allowing this situation to develop in the first place. The dog didn't want the noise/children running around in its home, it reacted in an effort to reclaim its space/some peace, now everyone's blaming it... not the adults who should have recognised its agitation and prevented your nephew from being in a situation where yes; he could have been seriously hurt.

Please note I said "could have been" - because other than a few red marks, and a scare because his father panicked, he's fine (although he might have a phobia about dogs brewing as a result...). Many years ago, my then 2 year old cousin tripped over a pair of shoes and landed on our grandparents elderly, sleeping Corgi... which reacted instinctively to having been woken from her nap, and hurt by the toddler falling onto her. She had a snaggle-tooth which jutted out of her mouth... and as she lifted her head, mid-growl, it caught against the skin beneath my cousin's eye - leaving a red mark. My aunt and uncle went ballistic - because the dog had growled and her snaggle-tooth had marked their baby's face. They demanded that my grandparents have "the vicious dog" destroyed immediately... or they'd never allow their (precious first-born) child to visit with them again. My cousin had been laughing up until the moment his parents started to shout, and grab at him, and point at the small mark on his face (just under his eye... an inch higher, it would have caused an injury, so I do understand their terror) - at which point, he burst into tears and was inconsolable to the point where he began to retch. More shouting about "that dangerous dog" and "look what she's done!" followed, because my cousin was terrified. That was 40 years ago. My grandparents had no contact with my aunt, uncle and cousins for, I think, ten years or so. They didn't get to see my younger cousins as babies or toddlers at all, and consequently, had a very strained relationship with their own grandchildren - because there wasn't the same bond between them, as there was with the rest of us. I know it broke my grandmother's heart, because essentially she lost her bond with her youngest son, too, as well as with her first grandson. The "vicious", "dangerous" Corgi? In the immediate aftermath, she was shut away whenever children visited (which I suspect she preferred), and she lived for another four or five years. She reacted to being suddenly landed on and woken from a nap, in her own home, where she always napped - and the snaggle-tooth just happened to mark my cousin's skin. It was purely accidental on both their parts - him for falling on her, her for growling as she was woken up by him landing on her. Even as an 8 year old I knew that. But my cousin? Has been terrified of dogs ever since - and yes; I do blame my aunt and uncle for this, in so much as their panic frightened him, and he associated his panic with the dog, ergo, in his mind, all dogs are something to be frightened of/panicked by. He cannot allow his own children to be anywhere near dogs, as a result, which means that they associate dogs with their dad being panicky, therefore dogs are something for them to be frightened of/by, too. When we meet up, I leave my dogs at home - because I respect my cousin's fear, don't want him or his children to be frightened, won't put my dogs in a situation where they'd pick up on the fear and react to the stimulas by possibly snapping, or growling, which would prove my cousin "right" in that all dogs are dangerous... Which they are. Of course they are. They're animals which I am responsible for - and, as such, I won't knowingly, deliberately put them into a situation where they might hurt someone, accidentally or not.

Keep the dog away from children. Visit with your cousin outside of her home, without the dog. Family harmony can be restored - if your cousin and the child's parents/grandparents all accept their responsibility for this situation ever having been allowed to develop in the first place... and go out of their ways to prevent it from happening again.

Bubsworth · 27/08/2019 09:06

Dogs like that should be humanely euthanised, it's not worth the risk!!!

andyoldlabour · 27/08/2019 10:00

"Travellers' dogs aren't pets- they are working dogs, and guarding is part of their job."

Unbelievable response.
So, because a travellers dog is a working dog, they are allowed to run free and bite people who are walking on a public footpath?

SchadenfreudePersonified · 27/08/2019 16:30

andyoldlabour

You mistake my meaning - when I said they are working dogs, what I meant was that they are not treated as family members in the way many pet dogs are, and it seems that this one in the post is.

They are therefore less likely to be friendly, and more likely to be aggressive to strangers and to respond negatively to screams, shrieks, rapid movements etc.

I apologise if I gave the impression that i condoned dog aggression in any way, shape or form - I don't.

Emilyontmoor · 27/08/2019 17:20

Bubsworth So you euthanise every grumpy old dog? Because that would cover a fair proportion of old dogs —just like humans— The problem was the supposedly grown up humans who put the dog in that stress situation. If I had a grumpy old Labrador, and I wouldn’t because of all the labradors I have encountered who became grumpy, fat and lazy beyond even their second birthday —probably again because of their owners— I would keep it well away from children —and me—

XXcstatic · 27/08/2019 19:24

Deary me what a load of hysterics on here, so a couple of under 5 children, drunk adults, shrieking etc, this all sounds ideal, dog probably over excited. Everyone needs to take responsibility here, cousin needs to train her dog better; it doesn’t need to be killed, you keep your kids safe and away from the dog - everyone survives. A red mark is not a bite or the dog stacking him, if it had it would have bit immediately, can MN please try and educate yourselves about dog behaviour

Please do educate us about what a dog intends when it puts its jaws around a child's throat. Hmm

This attack could easily have been lethal. The dog was attacking the most vulnerable part of the body, with both carotid arteries and the trachea close to the skin's surface. It was unprovoked. The Dunbar scale isn't particularly useful in assessing the seriousness as (a) the attack was interrupted so we don't know how deep the bites would have been and (b) the Dunbar scale doesn't allow for body part - there is a huge difference between a bite to a limb and a bite like this to the throat. A bite to a limb can be accidental, proportionate self-defence, or over-excitement. There is only one reason that dogs go for the throat and that is to kill.

Nonnymum · 27/08/2019 19:45

,Emilyontmoor I isn't see how it can be the child's or parent s fault. The children were simply playing in the Hall when the dog came in and walked by them. Surely its the dog owners fault for not keeping the dog away from the children.

Aridane · 28/08/2019 23:02

Is poster Buccanarab for,real?

Emilyontmoor · 29/08/2019 02:10

*Nonnymum” So if your children are near a cliff edge you think it is the cliff edge’s problem if they fall off? If I took children near a dog I would regard it as a way to Teach them how to behave around dogs just as you teach them to behave around any other danger. Including not running past a strange dog at dog height . I agree the dog owner is at fault but it is like the gravestone saying “It was their fault” ....

Tamberlane · 29/08/2019 04:59

Dogs owner is an idiot for minimising and is trying to deflect from the fact her dog has just bitten a child.

Kicking should be the least of her worries as this is a perfectly good reason for a dog to be euthanised.

If she was a sensible owner she'd be taking steps to ensure the dog never gets put im this sort of position again and taking precautions like muzzle etc when not supervised and undercontrol....not trying to defend its inappropriate behaviour.

Dogs who bite, inhibited or not, need special management and are not animals that should be left to interact with small children at all.

Biting hard enough to leave marks is relatively high on the scale of escalation for a dog. Most will show subtle discomfort signs, growl,airsnap before they resort to teeth on skin. The next step after a inhibited bite is biting hard enough to draw blood, then maul-multiple deep bites and trying to inflict damage....
Kicking a dog away from a small child after its delivered a bite is a completely reasonable thing to do imo...it might redirect onto the adult but an adult is more likely to survive a more delivered attack if the dog escalates then a child....

The issue here is why did the dog bite in the first place? Was it scared of the child and delivering a warning bite or was this prey drive in action? Neither are ideal but motivation behind the bite will help manage the dog later.

Adults can often learn to interprete the signs and avoid escalting situations that lead to dog bites if they want to manage a much loved pet but children cant and it cannot be expected to go well when we force dogs and children to interact.

There is no way Id allow small children to interact with a known biter though especially a dog thats large enough to inflict fatal injuries easily...especially with an owner thats in denial.

leomama81 · 29/08/2019 17:55

So if your children are near a cliff edge you think it is the cliff edge’s problem if they fall off?

Not a very logical analogy - the cliff edge is passive in that scenario - being an inanimate object - whereas the dog attacked the child.

Most likely if the child had been in the room with the dog, or interacting with the dog in any way, the adults around would have been monitoring and talking to the child as to how to approach it. But in this case the dog was in a separate room and then ran in.

I can't imagine that if that happened to your kid you would be saying it was your or the kid's fault.

Emilyontmoor · 30/08/2019 19:13

leo If my small child was in a house with a dog running loose that is a danger for a child running loose, just like a cliff edge. We are a family of dog lovers, my DDs were in no end of houses at family gatherings with other children and multiple dogs from different parts of the family. They were never allowed to run free in a house together, the probable potential for this outcome would have been why, it was predictable. Interaction was carefully supervised and centred around the dogs needs, teaching them how to behave around dogs, watching passively as the dogs played in the garden and playing the games the dogs were trained to play, kids love ball throwers for instance. Otherwise if the children were playing inside or outside the dogs were shut away. If any family member had insisted on letting their dog run lose inside unsupervised especially a grumpy old Labrador and my child would not stay safe sat still on my lap (obviously very likely) I would have left.

leomama81 · 30/08/2019 19:33

Well, I imagine that's what the parents thought the door was for! From a family of dog lovers myself btw.

Emilyontmoor · 30/08/2019 22:27

The dog came through an open door - why is that relavent?

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