Family fall out dog incident

[violashift]

I didn't see this happen but it has caused a massive extended family fall out on what was a lovely bank holiday.

At cousins house ;my sister and Bil are there with nephew age 5. He is playing in the hall with his brother.
The dog comes in initially wagging tail but within seconds the dog is having a go at my nephew who is about dog height.

My sis filmed all of this as she was filming the kids playing in the hall but dropped the phone when the dog went close to her son.

Pics attached. Brother in law kicked the dog in panic and pulled nephew away.

It all kicked off after that my cousin blaming the brother in law for kicking the dog and refusing to except anything was wrong saying the dog wouldn't hurt him.

Guess I am asking for advice on the next steps. Sis is shaking thinking the dog could have nicked an artery and cousin is annoyed the dog got kicked.

We have all left.

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edited by MNHQ - images removed by request

Not kicking a dog attacking a child? Absolute bollocks to that. The cousin is a shit.

Honestly I would not get involved. You didn't see what happened

She saw the video!!

If I felt an animal was about to attack my child I'd certainly do everything I could to prevent it, including kicking if need be.

Your bil did what he felt best in that moment. Cousin needs to calm down, and dog needs to be crated or muzzled around children.

“but does anybody own a dog (especially a large one) that isn't a big softie/softy or soppy?“

Well not now, because he’s dead... but I did until the beginning of the year have a Rottweiler that was aggressive with strangers, other dogs and was for most of his life kept away from visitors and muzzled when in public.

I’m currently fostering a complete soppy wee softie though...

OP - your cousin is being completely unreasonable, her dog shouldn’t have had access to children without her being present and she should be taking it seriously.

Whatever marks your nephew has though are what the dog intended to do, if he’s wanted to give a serious bite, he would have - your BIL wouldn’t have been able to stop him with a kick, unless he’s actually superman...

Bunnybigears , just out of interest have you trained your dog to wear a muzzle ?

frumpety no we have not, he is a Romanian rescue and I dont want to derail the thread as I know there are quite strong opinions on the rights and wrongs of this. We knew what we were getting in to, it took us a good 6 months to get him walking on a lead. We walk him on a short lead and always being mindful of the people around us (even when parents let their toddler run top to him and think that's fine) He goes for long off lead walks in the middle of winter on the beach or other deserted locations and his recall is surprisingly reliable.

If that dog bit, the type of dog it is either big staff or pit bull Cross. It wouldnt nip trust me on that. The size of its Jaws it would have done some serious damage. He was probably play biting and everyone panicked. But it should never have got to the level where this was acceptable both parent and owner are at fault.

Personally I'd probs got or kick the dog to... and I'm a dog lover...

Did the child do anything that set the dog off? That maybe sis and bil or not saying?

I just wondered as there seems to be quite an anti muzzle feel about the dog world that I don't understand, if a dog is muzzled the owner relaxes and the as a consequence the dog will pick up on those vibes and also relax. It isn't as though it any way impedes a dogs enjoyment of a walk, it just prevents unwanted behaviour putting the dog at risk.

I'm a dog lover, my whole family are, we love our (pretty soppy) dog but @) watch him around kids and b) wouldn't hesitate to kick him ourselves if it was in order to remove his jaws from a child's neck. (Would obviously never ever do so in any other circumstances).

Your cousin is being completely unreasonable and calling your BIL names is unbelievable, she should be apologizing and working out a way forward with the dog.

Report it OP. For a pup to be behaving like this at that age, with kids, you have an absolute time bomb and it's owners don't seem to know or care.

What part of the UK are you in?
Often pit bull types are described as staffy x lab, and sometimes they are that, but not always.
But whatever they will be big dogs with powerful jaws.
If you are in a position to, or other family members I would report the dog and the owner to the police.

LaMarschallin One of my current dogs was very badly abused as a puppy and is terrified of adults she does not know.
She could easily bite someone badly through fear if they tried to touch her and is always muzzled and crates in another room when we have guests.

(She’s a ‘big soppy softy’ with people she knows and all children she’s ever met though and she’s getting better and better every day).

she’s getting better and better ever

That's really nice to hear.

For a pup to be behaving like this at that age

The dog is not a pup. It’s 10 years old.

“It isn't as though it any way impedes a dogs enjoyment of a walk”

It does though...

They can’t play with toys, so games and non food rewards are completely ruled out. It makes training trickier because it delays food rewards getting to the dog. They do get in the way of sniffing, which is pretty much the purpose of dogs walking, lol and they make other dogs react differently - they can’t see facial expressions.

They have plus points, but, they’re not exactly free from downsides.

I might have missed this in the thread, but has the dog bitten or tried to bite before? It seems unlikely a dog would get to the age of 10 and lunge like that for the first time. And whether the dog has any history of biting or not, it should be kept well away from children: a responsible dog owner would do this, at the very least.

Check out the Dunbar Bite Scale and the advice that goes with it. It's helpful at putting things into perspective and distinguishing a serious problem from one that is lesser, but still needs to be dealt with.

Thanks all will look at the Dunbar scale.

They would have kept it to themselves if the dog had done this before. We have been to visit several times before. Nothing like this had happened.

I find those photos shocking. I'd take the video and report to police. Dog bites should be reported

In the second picture you can tell that the dog is attacking, look at it's eye and jaw.
Of course you would kick a dog that was attacking, it's instinct, a quick reaction to stop the attack. Yes it will make a dog angrier but in that split second you can pick up your child to safety.

They would have kept it to themselves if the dog had done this before

If this was a genuine attack, as opposed to rough play that went too far (I can't really tell from your description, but it seems a strong possibility), then I am prepared to bet my life that the dog has done this before.

Dangerous dogs, like serial killers, start off small - they snap at people; if they get away with this they will move on to biting - usually hands* and legs - often they won't break the skin; if they still aren't checked, their attacks will become more frequent and serious - every attack will be bolder and more aggressive than the last as they gain confidence develops. Going for the face/head is a very confident move - this isn't the first time this animal has bitten/ tried to bite.

*Not to be confused with an animal which is anxious/frightened, or is tormented beyond endurance. Such dogs will also snap at hands, but will rarely connect unless by accident, because they just want to be left alone - they aren't interested in hurting - just getting a bit of peace. A dog that does this will also immediately back away having once snapped.

An aggressive dog will continue the attack - it gets an adrenaline rush from it.

They can’t play with toys, so games and non food rewards are completely ruled out. It makes training trickier because it delays food rewards getting to the dog. They do get in the way of sniffing, which is pretty much the purpose of dogs walking, lol and they make other dogs react differently - they can’t see facial expressions.

Most muzzles allow dogs to be able to drink , and in no way impedes their ability to pick up scents. Facial expressions is an interesting one, I had a dog with a docked tail, not something I would personally have done as he was a pet and not a working dog so absolutely no benefit to either me or the dog, I was told regularly that a docked tail meant that other dogs couldn't read his signals. And people on here have described the many and varied 'signals' dogs give to express their discomfort. Having a muzzle on doesn't stop a dog displaying these signals, it does stop a dog being PTS because it acts on them. Personally I would prefer a dog wearing a muzzle than a dog being put to sleep unnecessarily because a human doesn't like the idea of them and cannot 100% guarantee they can avoid situations where they could be useful.

I also know a dog that ate a 12" pizza through their muzzle Training should always be done in a fairly secure environment though, shouldn't it ? Otherwise they might get bored and wander off ? Dogs are like toddlers in that respect, you don't let them loose unless you know they will be safe ?

“and in no way impedes their ability to pick up scents”

It stops them being able to get right into things to sniff at them... because there’s a barrier and a gap.

“Personally I would prefer a dog wearing a muzzle than a dog being put to sleep unnecessarily because a human doesn't like the idea of them”

Absolutely - as I said earlier my last dog was muzzled in public for most of his life, they’re very useful if they’re needed... I was just pointing out why some people are a bit reluctant to use them.

“Training should always be done in a fairly secure environment though, shouldn't it ?”

No, the chances are that if you’ve a dog that needs to be muzzled you’re pretty much constantly training them...

That doesn’t mean they’re offlead, just that because they have issues you’re always having to work on those.

Cousin is a total ass! I'd have kicked that dog away too. You do what you have to to protect your child who clearly was in danger.