To think that women can't have it all..........

[Anon230982]

Before I had my sons I was on a sound educational/career pathway. I wasn't conflicted, I had singular purpose and no responsibility for anything else other than myself. I went to University, got a good degree and started with a job in social care, working for vulnerable adults. I quickly gained a good reputation with my clients, built positive relationships with colleagues and planned to undertake further professional training to progress my career. Then, in 2014, when I was 32 I had my first son. Suddenly, I was given mundane jobs at work, the secondment I was on wasn't extended and I left to have Baby No.1. I took nine months off...…..and experienced the life-changing transition that is becoming a parent. I had a trauma birth, suffered from post-natal anxiety and depression, and eventually, with the help of family and friends, defeated it and got level again. Then back to work. Juggled a very demanding role with the added responsibilities of parenthood, and developed the role to a high standard. My workload was the same on part-time hours as it would have been on full-time hours. When a senior position came up I went for it. Only to be told that I hadn't got it, but I was "an expert in my field." The person who was employed often tapped me for advice. No support from senior colleagues. Left work again in winter 2018 to have Baby no.2. Was told, by an elderly friend of my late Gran's, that "women can't have it all." At the time, I thought she was just a product of her generation but I've had time to think and reflect. Nature is old-fashioned; women naturally prioritise their babies over pretty much everything else. It's (usually) the woman who is the primary care-giver in the first year, who sacrifices her thoughts and actions and identity to the continuous demands of nurturing a little person. Men make a massive transition into parenthood as well, don't get me wrong but now having gone through it twice, I do believe life changes more completely for the woman. Women are primed by nature to sacrifice their own personal self for this purpose; all modern opinions on gender equality are kicked to the kerb. My husband leaves for work in the morning neatly groomed, looking like a respectable adult. I spend my days crawling around on the floor, half naked, eating scraps of food. I can't finish a sentence, or take a crap in peace. He has board meetings and runs a Team. I can just about remember the words to "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star," he delivers speeches and writes binary code for operational management. I can't remember what it's like to hold a conversation with another adult that doesn't involve the words "poo on my hands/awake all night/teething). I can't finish a cuppa. I manage to get dinner done, and look after my sons in the day. And to me, that feels like a massive achievement. Everything else has had to slide. When I do return to work I won't be the same person. That's no choice - it's old-fashioned nature at it's best - it's what motherhood has done to me. My values have changed, as well as my priorities. I'm a mum first - and something else second but I'm not sure what.That's not to say I'm unhappy. I'm probably the happiest I've ever been despite passing my days feeling like an unpaid domestic servant. (And a naked one at that.) But sometimes that lady's words come back to me when I see my husband suited and booted, going to work in the morning and I wonder, was she also trying tell me not to put too much expectation on myself...…..being a mum is the hardest job going and perhaps...….just perhaps for a limited time only you forego your modern right to equality at work...…...you're out of the game for a long time, long enough for someone else to fill your space and for you to lose a lot of work-related skill. There's a significant loss of work-confidence mothers often experience after giving birth and being on maternity leave. Going back into a professional environment where people expect you to deliver and be dressed isn't easy. Perhaps you can't have it all. Or maybe you can't have it all and be happy. What do others think?

I do wish people would stop saying how mothers have a stronger bond and how hard it it is for mothers to leave their children and go back to work or any version of that. I never felt guilty. I love my children and would give my life for theirs but I also love my independence, and my job and my kids aren't my whole life, only part of it. But when I read these comments, I feel like I must be a shit mother because I don't feel guilty. I don't really even think about them at work as I am too busy.

Are there more women like me? I hope so. Do people say they feel guilty for leaving their kids because that is what society expects?

I feel like I must be a shit mother because I don't feel guilty. I don't really even think about them at work as I am too busy.

I love my job, I don’t feel guilty about working and I’m also too busy whilst I’m there to think about them much BUT I do find it a lot harder to be away from them than my DH does and I do believe that I have a different bond and attachment to them than he does.

It may be an old fashioned view but I do believe there is a certain bond between a mother and child that can’t be replicated.

There are a lot of factors at play:
Career demands and quality of employer (for both parents)
Family and social support, be it practical or just emotional/ social conditioning.
Avaliability, cost-benefit of childcare compared to work.
Lifestyle costs (including location such as housing) leading to aspiration, and perception of what is "essential" or desirable.
Personal ambition and drive. Applies to both career and parenting style. Priorities and values.
Childrens' needs. Some need more time, emotional support or external support such as medical appointments than others.

I've fallen into being a SAHM, unusually once DS1 started school. Nursery childcare was straightforward and met his needs. He struggled with school & wrap around care. It turns out he has some high functioning SNs, so he benefits from that quiet time in his home and struggles with busy childcare settings around the demands of the school day. That wasn't apparent when I stopped working, I just knew that he wasn't happy. If I had two DS2s, childcare would be much simpler as his coping threshold is far higher. Demands at work escalated rapidly from having DS1 where it was managable to the point where I left and didn't seek further work at the end of a contract because my time required to do my job "competently" was far too much to the detriment of time and energy left for the DCs and myself (thanks Michael Gove). Meanwhile DH is older and was well-established in his better-paid career before I met him. It made no financial sense to restrict his salary, role and progression to advance my lower paid career. In the absence of family support, I'm tied to work that fits around regular childcare options to fit around his need to be flexible. He's not totally inflexible, and can block out occasions to fit around me (e.g. hosting evening events such as parent's evening) but he would struggle to do it as a routine requirement of my work and at short notice. Simply, without external support, we couldn't both sustainably work 100+ hours per week between us. I'm fulfilled by voluntary work which meets the priorities that inspired me into my career. My life is good.

Parenting has become very martyred and claustrophobic which doesn't help. Go back 30 years and my 8 & 6 yo's would have spent much of their summer holiday around the corner, on the green or in the park with their classmates. I wouldn't have spent 6 continuous weeks in their company being driven beserk by constant bickering. They could have played with their friends or at least bickered out of earshot I do suspect that a lot of poor maternal mental health (even at the level of pass the gin/ wine blogs) is due to the fact that in the interests of "good parenting" and "safety" we are isolated off with our children too much. My 6 yo doesn't play out frequently with his classmate next-door, because he's not there while his parents both work and the rest of their time is very structured. Most of my friends are not avaliable due to their working hours or distance. I missed out on bonding with other SAHMs through working through the early years so while I have aquaintences which fill a social need, I'm not a close friend and am peripheral to the friendships established years ago in school nursery.

Everyone has different circumstances. Women can certainly feel pressured into doing it all through conditioning and external circumstances. Having it all and feeling fulfilled depends a lot on priorities, circumstances, some degree of planning and a lot of luck (e.g. supportive/ unsupportive employers within the same field).

Totally agree kittie
When they were still being BF I had a very strong urge to keep them close but went back to work happily.
PT then FT
You are not a shit mother at all .
Its a load of bollocks designed to to keep us under the patriarchal thumb and in our place.
Do I feel guilty for being a good parent, bringing up happy DC, providing them with a lovely home and sharing this with my DH,who incidentally had a fantastic bond and love for our DC the minute the were born.
Like fuck do I !

kitties I feel just like you

@QueenofmyPrinces I really don't think I have a stronger bond than my husband. And I think by saying that sort of thing , it almost validates societies position that women should be the primary parent

kittie - my husband is very hands on, he does 50% of the childcare, if not more at times, he spends loads of time alone with the children taking them out etc etc (he even takes them on holiday twice a year without me) and they have an absolutely amazing bond.

However, despite the wonderful relationship they have with their dad, they still have a stronger bond and attachment to me than they do him. And that’s not down to societal values and pressures because they’re a bit too young for that, but just because that’s how it is.

@Sockworkshop Thank you.

I told my MiL I was promoted the other day and she said would that me be more
Travel? I said I had a few trips

• Vienna, Spain , Italy. She said, what does your DH say about that? Haha haha haha I said, erm, I don't have to ask his permission. She said, well they are your children too. We split everything 50/50 but she was a Sahm her whole life. My husband Has work trips as well. I'm so sick of continuously feeling like I have to justify my career and my choices.

I don't think your experience is universal - it sounds particularly shit because your workplace are unfairly sidelining you and your husband isn't doing his share.

It sounds like this is making you unhappy (understandably). Can you make changes? Maybe your husband could be the SAHP and you could return to work? Or could you move into a different career field or find a less awful employer? I don't know if any of these things are possible, but I feel sorry for you in your current circumstances.

Bonds are very personal between individuals. Through circumstances of birth and later personality types DH's bond with DS1 is different to DS2. DS2 has a different need for mummy to DS1 who has a different and more egalitarian parenting need. They are both bonded with us, but each parent/ child bond is individual.

Early on, as soon as was reasonably practical, it was important to me to step out of the door and be me. First time was only 10 precious minutes, but I resolved early on not to feel guilty for preserving a sense of self and independence.

Being out of work was easy, far too busy to pine for the DCs and feel guilt. The hard bit was when work intruded into home life, and that small window of the day with the DCs before bedtime and picking up the marking and planning for the rest of the night which left me drained as my relaxation time was too heavily compromised.

I could have written this post myself. Ten years on from giving birth it's still pretty much the same

kitties
The one thing I learnt was that you dont need to justify what you do to anyone .
Negotiate and discuss with your DH/partner but others nope.
Luckily I have a good hard stare

But when I read these comments, I feel like I must be a shit mother because I don't feel guilty.

Please don't. What works in one family's situation doesn't in another's. You've made your choices based on what is best for your individual family's circumstances. Others do likewise: it doesn't matter whether their choices are different from yours and it certainly doesn't matter if some people judge you for it. If you're female there's always, always someone sitting on the sidelines who is ready, able and willing to sneer at you for being an inadequate parent. Don't accept it. Guilt is a useless emotion and it serves no productive purpose. Fathers? No mention of 'guilt' with them.

FWIW, I would not be living with a man who expected the entirety of the childcare and housework to be done by me whilst both of us work at careers. It just would not happen. I wouldn't have had children with such a man in the first place, and if I had, and things regressed to this state of affairs, the relationship would continue to last for a maximum of five minutes.

I'm fortunate that the career I've chosen allows me a high degree of flexibility. But it also demands serious commitment, and entails a long commute and a good many hours' working from home that my DH doesn't have. I take on aspects of childcare he is less well-placed to give and vice versa. We have cleaners, and are both equally invested in our DC. We have no family living locally, and apart from paid help, have no support with the DC. Support from within our own family unit is therefore essential. DH didn't want a SAH wife - he wanted someone prepared to pitch in with our investment in our future, pensions etc, and this coincides with my own wishes. I did take my full entitlement to maternity leave, but have the sort of career that if I gave up one particular job I'd be out of the loop permanently. This wasn't an option. I wanted a life after the DC started school and began to be more independent. There's nothing at all wrong with this. If other mothers want the opposite of this, there's nothing at all wrong with that either.

This 'can't have it all' bollocks when directed at women, or telling us 'mothers [should] feel guilt, and if we don't we're not good enough as mothers' is anything but helpful.

Anyone for BF -v- FF?

@MarieIVanArkleStinks your husband sounds a lot like mine.

It depends on what you want and your attitude/effort towards achieving it.

I built my career when I was a single parent. I now have a partner and I'm due to have a baby any day. We are splitting parental leave just like we split everything else because we both want (what we consider to be) an equal household. He's been a single parent with majority access (stepson is with us 90% of the time) so he gets it.

I find it strange when some women say how things are unequal/unfair after having a baby but they aren't prepared to split any parental leave at all. I wouldn't choose to have children with a man whose career he deemed to be more important than mine but that's personal preference.

Lol it's not privileged to have worked hard to no longer be in a low paid job. It's not privileged to try and be financially stable before having children in a country with free and easily accessible contraception. It's not privileged to consider your support system or the cost of childcare before having children - I use GPs now I'm part time but if I get my FT promotion we'll be looking at nursery but in a few years I'll still have the promotion without the childcare cost so it's worth it. It's about delayed gratification, family planning and working hard. Women shouldn't be expected to apologise for their 'privilege' there.

I don't thing it has to be how you describe but I agree that combining children with work is tricky.
For both parents.

Both me and my husband work FT. We have 3 children. We both have demanding roles but not overly so and we have allowed things to go 'slow' and we have not gone for roles that would not be suitable with looking after the children. We both do that. He is a bit ahead of me in his career. It could be down to my 3 mat leaves (I bf and didn't fancy sharing the leave, took 6months then 9months each for the last 2). It could also be down to me being younger and slightly less qualified.

In any event I am reasonably happy with what we are doing atm. When the kids are older we can rebalance things and look for more challenging roles etc. It seems natural to do so. We have no family around so we have to take that into account.

Some people will never escape poverty no matter how hard they work. Privilege is invisible to those that have it.

If you take it upon yourself to be the main care giver then yes, you can't have it all. If you have a set up in which your partner doesn't just focus on work to leave you pretty much alone with the childcare, then you can keep growing your career. I know a few such couples who have managed balance. It requires both to compromise a little to achieve that.
I think it's as much a relationship question as a society/ workplace mentality question. It also depends on the wider support network (GPs, available childcare options etc).

Yes privilege can be invisible to those that have it

However, sometimes people can get out of poverty and havent had a privilege to take advantage of until they got to a certain level/situation in life.

I do also think that people like to use the world 'privilege' out if context.

I remember some people in my job hating me and saying it was favouritism and I had privileges that other people didnt because I was liked, when I got promoted. I was even told it was white privilege. It wasnt. Though I was, well liked. The job and shift pattern was advertised. No one wanted it because it was full time but over 4 days 10-8pm including fridays and Saturdays.

It suited me as I could take dd to school or holiday club and dh worked early shifts so picked her up afterwards. Dh didnt work Saturdays. Ideally I wanted mon-fri. But this was one step in that direction.

No one else wanted the job because they didnt want the shifts. Despite some people claiming favouritism, racism and my privilege, they werent willing to take some pain for long term gain.

And no, none of these people had kids or were carers. They just valued their saturday more than being promoted. Great for them. But I didnt get that job through privilege and decided that having sunday, monday, tuesday off (especially in the school holidays) was more beneficial to our family.

So yes some people cabt see their own privilege. Some people just like to throw the word around. Usually to make people feel bad for something good happening.

I think it's the current structure of society that makes this very difficult. We're dependent on expensive childcare, male partners shirk domesticity, family ties are fractured all too often. If I'd had a loving partner and parents rather than abusive ones, I probably would have had the support to succeed as well as reproduce. But that's all too often the way things go. People rarely look at a new mother and think "what can i do to help her to have a more balanced life and make sure her dreams aren't crushed?" do they? No woman is an island.

Some people can work their way out of poverty. Some people are never even aware that it's an option as they have no one to teach them that or encourage them. Some people are more privileged than others just by having parents or someone in their family that cares.

@Ilikethisone
I disagree. I think women being the primary carer is a result of how society is set up. Women are condition to be kinder, more caring and conditioned to believe that having kids is the 'correct' thing
This ultimately boils down to the old nature vs nurture or biology vs socialisation debate that has never been definitively settled. I think that the presence and influence of one element doesn't prove that the other element has no influence. In fact I would argue that they both can act together so that socialisation can compound and penalise against a biological predisposition.

"And being biologically predisposed to being tall isnt the same as a biological urge. Neither, of vary degrees is something we all have. Leaving out, genetic conditions, we all grow. Some just stop sooner than others Oh and supermarket shelves are too tall for lots of people, mainly women. Dp is 6ft 4. He is always helping people who are shorter to get something down. Men and women. My best friend is 5ft and struggles sometimes*
The point I made about the difference in height between the sexes is that for something to be true at a class level (I.e. men tend to be taller than women) doesn't mean that it is true at an individual level (i.e. that any given man will be taller than any given woman). It was in response to a poster suggesting that because they didn't have an urge to be a primary carer for their child then they were either an oddity or that there mustn't be a trend for women to have this urge. Obviously neither can be true and it could just be that she is an exception to the trend.

Same goes with the supermarket shelves example, in that some men may well struggle to reach high up shelves but this will disproportionately affect women and is therefore penalising women as a class for their biology even if certain women can reach the shelves more easily than certain men.

I always find it interesting that there are so many obvious physical differences between men and women that are undoubtedly driven by biology and yet there seems to be a growing movement to assume that any psychological differences between the sexes are as a result of socialisation. I'm not denying socialisation plays a role but in the absence of any real certainty in this area it seems crazy and sometimes a bit sinister to rule out biology when we can observe so easily how powerful it can be.

Surely by calling normal,good parenting and modelling of good values "privilege" we are endlessly perpetuating the situation?

Poor values and poor role models,are just that and we should be encouraging help for people in this situation .
Sure Start was a huge success and I hate the Tories for dismantling this and for what they have done to libraries

I'm a single parent, my ex went to prison after 3weeks after my son was born and i had some serious mental health issues to work through. I was made redundant shortly afterwards but a year later i put myself back together and got a new job. Since then despite having no real support with my son I've earned 2 promotions and increased my salary by £20k up to £50k (which is quite a lot in the north ).
Everyone's story is different but i actually i do think women can have it all. Having all other options taken away from me meant i had no choice but to work my ass off and consequently having a child has not held me back, if anything it has given me the focus and the drive that i needed to up my earning potential.