To think that women can't have it all..........

[Anon230982]

Before I had my sons I was on a sound educational/career pathway. I wasn't conflicted, I had singular purpose and no responsibility for anything else other than myself. I went to University, got a good degree and started with a job in social care, working for vulnerable adults. I quickly gained a good reputation with my clients, built positive relationships with colleagues and planned to undertake further professional training to progress my career. Then, in 2014, when I was 32 I had my first son. Suddenly, I was given mundane jobs at work, the secondment I was on wasn't extended and I left to have Baby No.1. I took nine months off...…..and experienced the life-changing transition that is becoming a parent. I had a trauma birth, suffered from post-natal anxiety and depression, and eventually, with the help of family and friends, defeated it and got level again. Then back to work. Juggled a very demanding role with the added responsibilities of parenthood, and developed the role to a high standard. My workload was the same on part-time hours as it would have been on full-time hours. When a senior position came up I went for it. Only to be told that I hadn't got it, but I was "an expert in my field." The person who was employed often tapped me for advice. No support from senior colleagues. Left work again in winter 2018 to have Baby no.2. Was told, by an elderly friend of my late Gran's, that "women can't have it all." At the time, I thought she was just a product of her generation but I've had time to think and reflect. Nature is old-fashioned; women naturally prioritise their babies over pretty much everything else. It's (usually) the woman who is the primary care-giver in the first year, who sacrifices her thoughts and actions and identity to the continuous demands of nurturing a little person. Men make a massive transition into parenthood as well, don't get me wrong but now having gone through it twice, I do believe life changes more completely for the woman. Women are primed by nature to sacrifice their own personal self for this purpose; all modern opinions on gender equality are kicked to the kerb. My husband leaves for work in the morning neatly groomed, looking like a respectable adult. I spend my days crawling around on the floor, half naked, eating scraps of food. I can't finish a sentence, or take a crap in peace. He has board meetings and runs a Team. I can just about remember the words to "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star," he delivers speeches and writes binary code for operational management. I can't remember what it's like to hold a conversation with another adult that doesn't involve the words "poo on my hands/awake all night/teething). I can't finish a cuppa. I manage to get dinner done, and look after my sons in the day. And to me, that feels like a massive achievement. Everything else has had to slide. When I do return to work I won't be the same person. That's no choice - it's old-fashioned nature at it's best - it's what motherhood has done to me. My values have changed, as well as my priorities. I'm a mum first - and something else second but I'm not sure what.That's not to say I'm unhappy. I'm probably the happiest I've ever been despite passing my days feeling like an unpaid domestic servant. (And a naked one at that.) But sometimes that lady's words come back to me when I see my husband suited and booted, going to work in the morning and I wonder, was she also trying tell me not to put too much expectation on myself...…..being a mum is the hardest job going and perhaps...….just perhaps for a limited time only you forego your modern right to equality at work...…...you're out of the game for a long time, long enough for someone else to fill your space and for you to lose a lot of work-related skill. There's a significant loss of work-confidence mothers often experience after giving birth and being on maternity leave. Going back into a professional environment where people expect you to deliver and be dressed isn't easy. Perhaps you can't have it all. Or maybe you can't have it all and be happy. What do others think?

We can do anything, but not everything. I saw that a few years ago and it really stuck with me.

runbitchrun yes that's a very good summary.
Can have anything but not everything.

I dont want to do everything though and luckily DH agrees with me !
I wanted my DC to be hands on parented by their father and to see him doing the chores.
I think often circumstances dictate-job role,other parent wont compromise, CC too expensive and its presented as SAHP is the holy grail -because there is no choice .
My idea of hell !
I had 3 lovely mat leaves plus AL , EBF all 3 until 2 years and was more than ready to head back to work.

If its a fulltime role how on earth have I brought up 3 happy,healthy and successful DC while holding down a career ?
Oh and my house is lovely as well
Am I Superwoman?
Ah no its because DH did his share !
Time and time again these debates are only focussed on women when we need to look at what men are doing and how we can improve work/life balance for everyone.

It's important to note that it has never been emphatically proven that women do not have this biological predisposition at a population level and there is a trend that can be observed throughout history and across animal species that would suggest that women are much more likely to adopt the role of primary carer than their male counterparts.

You cannot possibly prove a negative. And women are more likely to be primary carers, but what that looks like and whether it precludes working outside the home is not culturally universal. From that anthropology article I posted in the middle of the night (couldn't sleep!) upthread:

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"Who Minds the Baby? Beng Perspectives on Mothers, Neighbours, and Strangers as Caretakers"
Alma Gottlieb
Alma Gottlieb

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Who Minds the Baby?
Beng Perspectives on Mothers, Neighboursand Strangers as Caretakers
Alma Gottlieb
Introduction
In the contemporary middle class of many post-industrialized societies, families areconstructed, at least discursively if not in actual fact, as what we call ‘nuclear’, and ba-bies are raised – again, at least discursively if not in actual fact – so exclusively by oneperson, generally the mother, that many are convinced that this must be a ‘natural’phenomenon with deep roots in biological structures (see Helen Penn, this volume). Yet at the same time that this discourse has firmly taken hold, anthropologists andother researchers have quietly but strikingly been documenting a notable array of caretaking strategies across time and space for even the youngest of children – strate-gies that diverge significantly from those that hold at least discursive sway in the con-temporary post-industrialized West. Elsewhere, these caretaking strategies routinely involve more than just the mother (or a single mother-substitute). A small but growing literature now explores the multiple options for caretaking of infants that exist in numerous societies across the globe and through time. Indeed,the model of a mother being the exclusive or even major caretaker of her own young children – a model that still exists as normative in the American public imagination,for example, and that is still enacted in at least some middle-class American families(e.g., Richman et al.1988) – is of decreasing relevance even in middle-class, Euro- American society (Harkness and Super 1992). It is far less relevant in other Americansub-groups, as well as in many other societies (Weisner and Gallimore 1977). FromPygmies in Central Africa (e.g., Hewlett 1991; Tronick et al. 1987) and peasants in

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Alma Gottlieb
Cameroon (Nsamenang 1992) to the highlands of Ecuador (Stansbury et al. 2000)to small-town residents in central Italy (New 1988), data are accumulating that therelatively recent, normative Euro-American model of ‘mother taking more-or-lessexclusive care of her young children’ may be something of a statistical anomaly. In West Africa, the Beng pattern of caretaking fits in with this growing awareness that inmany societies, the care of infants is more a collective than an individual (mother’s)responsibility.

I think they can if they have an equal relationship. So both work, both look after the house and do their share of parenting. Maternity leave can be shared between both parents now which was another huge step for equality.

Of course careers are going to be affected if people go part time or take years out out the workplace but those are choices people make and they have to accept the consequences that come with that.

We can only give 100% so neither work nor children get all of our time or effort. OP i never met a woman who has a F/T job, children and a household to run who has been happy, as you see from the posts on here we all like to moan

If you want it all you definitely need a man who is prepared to be truly a 50/50 parent and supports and values your career as much as his own. And it helps to have employers that don't think 'part time' is 'less skilled'.

The most important career decision a woman makes is the man she marries.

I agree OP.

I would love to further my career and be able to take up opportunities.

But at the same time I went back PT after maternity leave because I want to be around for my young children as much as possible.

Unfortunately I can’t have both and as it stands my children come higher in the stakes of what matters.

There’s no way I could further my career and still have as much time with my children.

It’s a trade off really isn’t it.

It depends on your priorities but I have really found that people's attitudes have changed at work since I've been back from mat leave (a few months). I had a traumatic birth, nearly losing DD who is getting there but has a few milestones delays and medical appointments. I've been asked if 'work is still my priority' am I 'taking step back in my career', will I be 'off again with no 2 in 6 months' and told that surely I cant accept a late meeting due to childcare as if its anyone else's business (we use gps so it's very flexible). I have a similar public sector job to you. Having been so vulnerable during DDs birth its actually spurred me on and I've applied for a big full time promotion at a different but related organisation. DD will be older and ready for nursery. It's the outdated views that are the issues and when I correct people that I am still the breadwinner (despite being part time) it's like its ignored and my job is treated as 'pin money'. MIL actually told me I should be saving all of my salary for house bits and holidays like she did. Eh thanks MIL that my salary pays for those little treats like food, water, power, our house. Maybe speak to your son about his 'pin money'! I believe I can have a career and be a present and involved mum but it will be at my cost because I wont be getting AL to do what I want and my weekends will be spent with baby activities. I think that's all normal though.

Yes blackcat. My experience is the same. People assume I'm returning to work to keep it up as a hobby. Not because I am the main breadwinner (I also happen to like my job).

This is such a privileged middle-class discussion.

It assumes women have interesting, well paid careers.

Many women are at home because they have no choice.

I see it as this..

Most beneficial situations to be in, it order of preference..

Well paid career you love + family support = easy to have it all

Well paid career you love + ability to pay for help

Low paid job + family support

Low paid job + no family support

If you are in the last situation, you are screwed.

I think women can have it all but not at the same time.

Unless you have an amazing employer. I’m very lucky with mine but for now my career has taken a back seat so I can work part time. I’m happy with that as DD is my priority. I don’t want it all at once, way too stressful to juggle everything.

Ah yes formerbabe therefore we should just shut up and not discuss it -because it doesnt tie in with your views

@Sockworkshop

Ah yes formerbabe therefore we should just shut up and not discuss it hmm -because it doesnt tie in with your views

Tie in with what views of mine?

DH and I started on 2 pretty rubbish paid jobs and agreed we would support each other and work our way up.
No it wasnt easy but then I didnt start out out wanting to "have it all"
I wanted to share it all.

formerbabe I disagree. I am not middle class.

I grew up in a single parent family for just of my childhood. Up until recently I was paid around 20-25k while I had kids.

Exh was definitely not middle class. My career was ok. Not terribly interesting. The most interesting thing was the finance independence. It did cost money in childcare, which mean there wasnt a huge difference at the end of the month. But worth preserving with until the kids were older and didnt need the same level of childcare. It was an I vestments in my career.

I do agree that your set up will, in a lot of ways determine at least part of your choice. But to say it's a middle class, discussion it's not.

What we do need to look, if you are correct and women tend to have uninteresting poorly paid jobs (more so than men) before they have kids, why is that?

Do they decide they are going to be a sahm, in their teens so dont see the point? Do girls tend have a less clear view of what they want to do, do they need more career guidance. Are we letting girls down when it comes to education and preparing for adult life outside education.

When you dont have kids, that's the time you can concentrate on your career, setting you and your future on a more secure footing, why (as you say) are so many women not taking advantage of that?

And whole I was a single parent, I was 24k. Not a bad wage. But not a great household income.

Definitely not middle class.

You can have it all, just not all at once. I did motherhood young, before I had a career. Graduated when my son was 12 and then built my career in my mid to late 30s, not needing childcare care, when a lot of my colleagues were having babies. In those years I zoomed past them. It turned out I was more reliable, didn’t want flexible hours and definitely wasn’t going on maternity leave. In my 50s I got jobs in preference to women 20 years younger for those reasons.

Women absolutely can have it all but a huge part of this depends on the partner you choose and the choices you make as a couple. If you're in a relationship where it's the norm for both partners to contribute to childcare and household chores equally then it can work.

If you find yourself in a situation where you are expected to do the majority of the childcare and housework then you'll have problems.

Alsohuman Well done you, i hope you are enjoying the fruits of your labour

I also grew up in a single parent household and swore I would not have that life. Roll on a few decades and I am a single parent but I fought tooth and nail for my career and resisted all pressure to take a step back.

In truth I found that the baby years were easier to outsource and I needed more flexibility to cope with all the school stuff.

I do think I "have it all" if having it all is a successful career and a child but I am doing it all myself and there's not much (if anything) left over for me.

Yes but the middle class thing goes both ways. I'm middle class and like most mc people I've spent many years in no position to have kids.

Poorly paid work, rented accommodation, crap boyfriends. I don't have any mc friends whose twenties didn't look like this. But mc values usually (not always!) tie in with not starting a family until there's more stability etc.

Anecdotally and from personal experience, I think mc women are just as likely to have accidental, unplanned pregnancies but are more likely to consider termination if they're not in a good place to have a baby.

If I'd had the baby I'd accidentally got pg with when I was 24, I'd be in a materially much poorer position than I am now. My friends all report similar.

alsohuman I'm really glad it all worked out for you, but surely your route also required substantial financial or logistical support from someone else (parents? Partner - if so, not many 22 year olds have partners who could or even would support a whole family?) for those early years where you didn't have a career and then when you were studying? Realistically, it's not how the lives of most women who have their children young go

I definitwly shared your perspective in the early years. I couldn't imagine getting back to work and having my brain back; it was so disconcerting losing my vocabulary and ability to think straight - let alone about anything other than sleep and let alone in the throes of pnd. BUT, AND ALTBOUGH I hated people saying this at the time, this too shall pass. You do change fundamentally on becoming a parent and men defo have it easier professionally but as pp said, the bond mothers generally have with their kids in the early days is often the envy of male partners - it took me a while to readjust to work and the balance between home and work is a constant negotiation - but it won't be like this forever. Kids' needs change too: sooner than you know they actually bloody sleep, your hormones even out and they need peer-peer interaction all of which free up your time and brain.

Good luck. It's fucking hard.

It was a long time ago @NewAccount270219. Before student loans. And I had a working partner. It’s not how young women’s lives go now, it wasn’t then but that’s because society dictates career first, babies second. I know someone, younger than me, who’s done it my way and is about to start her midwifery training. Having experienced four births, I reckon she’ll be amazing.