AIBU to ask you to clarify "reasonable" in my dispute with a church and noise?

[alittlequinnie]

My DH and I have a meeting next week with the Council and representatives of the Church next door.

We have had trouble with noise issues for the past four years.

The result of the meeting will probably be defined by the Council's idea of what you should "reasonably" expect as noise from a Church.

Would any of you be able to take the time to suggest what you would suggest would be "reasonable" to expect if you lived next door to a Church?

I don't want to give too much info yet because it needs to be an unbiased opinion.

To help though the Church is a very modern one - built in the 1980s / 1990's and a Methodist Church.

I'd be so grateful if you could let me know what you would expect if you lived next to a Church.

We have both a RC church and a C of E church at the end of the road. Never had any noise problems from either of them, in fact now I think about it I think the RC one has even stopped ringing their (single) bell on a Sunday morning, I used to quite like hearing that. Maybe I just sleep through it these days!

No problems with parking, the C of E is really tiny, and the RC has a car park.

It sounds annoying but 56 decibels isn't really that loud?

Beg to differ this is their noise in your house! It would not be that noisey if you were in their building when they were having their service or religious rave! but that level of their noise in your room i don't think most anyone would put up with it!

How that 56 dBa I presume, reading was taken can have a quite a variation too.

Perhaps the focus should be the changes over the years? Arguably when you buy a house next to a church, you expect a certain amount of noise at certain times. However you couldn't have anticipated such a lot of noise on a Saturday for such a protracted period. Perhaps that's the right angle

I knew when I clicked on this thread it would be the chuffing SDA up to their usual tricks, absolute prats the lot of them.

We live four streets away from an SDA church and the noise that comes out of the place every Saturday is utterly intolerable it goes on for hours and into the night. I seriously feel for the people that live behind the church must be hellish.

They are also the most rude and entitled group of people I’ve ever come across in my entire life.

OP you have my full sympathy and what you are describing is completely unreasonable.

I don't think the church gets a free pass for noise disturbance just because it's a church. If the Meths want to rent it out to a noisy group, they should insulate it for noise.

OP - the Methodist hierarchy is
Minister
Superintendent minister
Chair if District

If you don't get any joy from the minister it may be worth contacting someone higher up

Chair OF district

OP your situation sounds very similar to what ours was back in London. In answer to your question what is reasonable expectation when living near a church:

• more traffic but not illegally parked cars or cars running in the street for ages.
• sounds of people arriving and leaving but expectation that this is brief and not for extended periods with loud talking shouting or children screeching.
• some early morning weekend starts (8 am) but no services or groups after 8/9pm
• sounds of bells, singing, music but nothing amplified to the extent it can be heard on other properties and particularly not for long periods or late at night
• the expectation that services or groups are unlikely to last longer than 2 or so hours. All of the above become even more unreasaonabke when there are several a day or events last for long periods

My argument to the council was a licenced venue (pub, restaurant, nightclub) would have significant restrictions on all the above to keep their licence. The pub up the road we frequented had to have everyone indoors by 9 yet the church opposite could make noise until 2am. Churches should not get a free pass.

We explained what we had when we moved in and it was what we expected. When the Baptist church then started up we clearly explained the change and the huge nuisance. Granted the whole street also sent similar letters but they were shut down and silenced within weeks.

Car horns being blared after 11pm and the likes is unreasonable.

Using an earth shatteringly noisy jack-hammer next door between 8am and 7pm is reasonable as long as its not being done in malice.

If you're sensitive to noise get some earplugs or consider moving.

ive got a feeling the other parties to your meeting will be eager to hear your complaints of this churches anti-social ongoings and loutish congregations. Good luck!

What an awful situation.
The SDA aren’t a main stream Christian group. I’ve heard them described as a cult. Some of their teachings are not in accordance with main stream Christian views.
I would be looking to find some leverage with the Methodist Church. You need to find access to someone much higher than the Methodist
Minister.
I hope you are able to resolve this situation.

Yanbi
Our church(also Methodist)rents space out to another church group as we need help financially
They have added HUGE speakers
I live literally three minute walk away.our church I cannot hear till you are near it,I can hear them as soon as I step outside.also inconsiderate with parking

They are being unreasonable, you have the right to enjoy your land and there needs to be a balance. As the use of the church has changed from when you moved there it is likely that you could win this under private nuisance. My knowledge is rusty now but I used to teach this, can't think of the cases now but there is one where a GP extended his surgery causing noise to his neighbour and he had to stop using the extension, another one where a boat club increased the frequency of their races which caused a nuisance to their neighbours and it was deemed that that caused a nuisance. Your situation is similar, the late night use and the subsequent nuisance it is causing cannot be argued to be a reasonable use of the church. YANBU

@daisyjgrey I came on here to say something very similar. I too am petty!!

I did have an interesting (and humorous) letter from the council noise team on my return from my post Christmas break 2 years ago - a tenant of the flat next door to the church had complained about anti social behaviour, noise, talking outside and the bells ringing on Christmas Eve/day ... midnight mass. Council told them that they were unreasonable and they suggested moving but they let me know in case they started making a nuisance of themselves, the "antisocial behaviour" was the choir singing carols outside of the church (which is by a pub) prior to the service!

I'd be finding the home telephone number of the minister and ringing him every 30 minutes on a saturday so he can listen to the noise through the phone. That includes all through the night.

"Actually I have an idea. Tape the Saturday service, play it back during the Sunday service - see how they like it"

This ^

You'll need to buy a strong speaker but that shouldn't be difficult . They're available for electric guitars.
Plus it's worse for you because you hear it all day and into the night (not just for a few hours) and when you're trying to relax.

I feel really sorry for you and your neighbour. Being invaded by noise is so horrible. I hope you can get a proper solution, involving legal representation if you need to.

In the meantime, talk to some hypnotherapists and see if there is anything they can do. (Seriously! ).
You could also buy some BOSE noise cancelling earphones for everyone in your family, but don't let the chruch tell you that's a long term solution -you won't be able to hear each other or the tv, radio etc.

Thank you all so much for your replies!

In answer to some of the questions:

• Methodist Minister has been contacted many times. He seems to think if he is not contacted at least twice every single week then the problem has "gone away" - he's very wet and often says "it's just singing and music"

• The Council have been contacted many times - I think I have raised officially 5 complaints, all with assigned reference numbers which have not been dealt with.

• The road is TINY - a really small cul-de-sac with the Church, us and one neighbour. The other neighbour have complained again and again to the Methodist Minister just like we have and have attended the three meetings we have had over the last 4 years. It is only this month that they have raised an official complaint with the Council (they didn't know how to do it) and the Council have finally reacted with this meeting.

• We have asked the SDA many times if they can quieten it down. At first they were willing to try but now they shout at us - it's very intimidating. Last week I was talking to one of the ladies about the noise and explaining I could hear it in my bedroom. We were just chatting when another SDA pulled up in his car and started shouting at me "are you not HUMAN" and shouted that I should "shut your windows if you don't like it" and then another member came out and started shouting at me that he was "sick of me and my complaints". I don't think we have going to be able to sort anything amicably now - in fact they tell us to take our complaint to the Council - probably because they don't know how to deal with it.

• I have four years worth of noise diaries, photos and videos and videos of the decibel metre to show the level of noise.

*I have four years worth of texts (all unanswered) to the Methodist Minister with various dates and times asking him if he can help us.

It has a huge effect on your mental health - for example if you know it's going to hot on Saturday then you know that the noise/socialising outside will be ramped up and you won't get any peace.

We are hoping that we can win the argument on the length of the time the noise goes on - for instance you have been disturbed from 9.30 to 2.30 and your patience has run out and you know you have another 5 hours of it to go!

As for the 56 Decibels - that's loud enough for you to be able to hear the words of the sermon when you are in your garden - you know trying to sit down and have a cup of tea or something - acceptable I would say for a while but after 2 hours you just give up and go in.

That sounds awful. You don’t sound like the standard, moved next door to a pub then complained about the noise type.

I’d be investigating all the relevant regulations regarding noise and raising as much as a stink as I could.

And I say that as the wife of a minister!

Oh god it’s a SDA service. You poor, poor thing :-(

I'd go to the local paper.
Have you had environmental health to monitor?
Can your neighbour make the same complaints?

But I would also fight fire with fire. Very loud music and ask your neighbour to do the same.

Go to the Sunday service at the Methodist church and invite the whole congregation to your house on a Saturday to experience for themselves what you’re putting up with.

You need the Methodist congregation to be as appalled with their Minister as you are.

I also came on to advise going to your local paper/radio station. I’d be doing sad face photos all over the show if it meant the problem would be sorted. Link this thread.

In fact, Daily Mail - coo-eee, where are you? here’s a great thread for you to steal!!!!!

I no longer work in noise busiance enforcement, but there are a couple fo things that stand out.

1. Coming to a nuisance is not a defence (so just because the church was there before you is irrelevant. You cannot cause a nuisance full stop. This does cause issues where, for example, a housing development is built next door to a pub known for its live music. The pub will lose, some people find this unfair, but it's how the law is written).

1. Nuisance is usually defined as materially interfering with the enjoyment of your dwelling. Which it definitely sounds like from your description.

3.the Council have a statutory duty to investigate. The fact they haven't is cause to complain to the ombudsman. I would definitely start that process off.

1. Genuine noise complaints can be very distressing, and belittling ops situation shows that you've never been truly affected by noise.

1. an abatement notice is the ultimate goal.

6.you can take your own civil action under the Environmental Protection Act. I'll double check which section and get back to you, but a quick Google will bring it up.

I'd agree with @glitterbiscuits. Go to the paper with this. The council have failed to do anything despite 4 years of reports. The SDAs have done nothing and are now verbally abusing you. The Methodist church have done nothing despite 4 years of reports. Invite the reporter round on a Saturday afternoon. They love a sad face story, invite your neighbour along too.

I think I'd be taking a megaphone into their service and shouting shit up....
Everytime....
But maybe call your local paper...