Anti-vaxxers are neglecting their children?

[sallycinnamonn]

Having a conversation with a friend about this whole anti-vaxxers malarkey.

She made an interesting point saying when a parent chooses not to vaccinate their child, it should be seen as neglect, as they are failing to protect them and their wellbeing and are putting them at risk of disease/death. It should be considered neglect just as it would be if the parent was putting them at risk of disease/death through placing them in a inadequate, unsafe environment etc.

I don't agree with anti-vaxxers but have never thought about it this way before. What are your opinions on it being considered as neglect? I'm interested to see what others have to say about her opinion.

I think it’s fair for nurseries and schools to not admit unvaccinated kids. Decisions should have consequences.

@Lweji
Hmmm. You did not answer my questions?
I think everyone know risk exist.

Good point on flu vaccine! It is more to prevent elderly deaths. But children taking on the risk (never zero risk).

You don't seem to think that children don't get the flu or don't get complications or that can't die too.
My niece go it (H1N1) as a baby and it was a hard time.
Why shouldn't we vaccinate our children to save them from a week of feeling very poorly, muscle pain, breathing difficulties, etc?

I think everyone know risk exist.

That sentence means shit.
What risk and with what likelihood?

Another issue with making vaccines mandatory is issue of consent and legal liability.
In US there are legal cases against military for the Anthrax vaccine. If U.K., or schools, etc make vaccines mandatory then they can be liable for prosecution if bad side effects. If vaccines kept optional, and you or your child have bad reaction much harder to prosecute because you consented.
“While the United States military has not thoroughly researched the long-term side effects of the anthrax vaccine on military veterans, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the vaccine contributed to the collective chronic illnesses and disabilities known as Gulf War Syndrome. According to a recent article in Stars and Stripes, the Department of Veterans Affairs denies over 80% of benefits claims filed by military veterans for illnesses and conditions related to the Gulf War.

The FDA has confirmed that Squalene – an oil-based adjuvant that hyperactivates the immune system – was used in some of the batches of the anthrax vaccine given to military members in the early 1990s. Squalene is very dangerous to use as an adjuvant because it can cause the body’s immune system to self-destruct.

Over 2 million doses of the anthrax vaccine were given to United States military members from 1990 to 2001. Thousands of Gulf War military veterans may have received an anthrax vaccine with the Squalene adjuvant. Extensive research done on other squalene-containing vaccines used around the world links Squalene to long-term severe neurological and immune system dysfunction.”
This from lawyer website for veterans to get money for vaccine damages
ptsdlawyers.com/blog/anthrax-vaccine-presents-long-term-effects/

@Lweji
H1N1 is swine flu, why you not get vaccine?
Also this is a different vaccine from universal flu vaccine. Try and respond to whole post and questions instead of picking sentence and applying to different subject/vaccine.

I have posted this before but ...
I lost a newborn baby who contracted hepatitis in hospital from another baby via its mother.
I would never risk putting anyone in my shoes by not vaccinating.

@habibihabibi
So sorry your baby died. Did other baby die too? Did they say why mother not vaccinated?
(When/where I grew up there was no hepatitis vaccine. My children got vaccine here, but I have no money to get it for myself. If they had offered it to me when pregnant, I would have accepted. Maybe NHS should think about offering vaccines to adults who missed some through no fault of own )

H1N1 is swine flu, why you not get vaccine?

It was niece. And it was as the vaccine was slowly becoming available.

The point remains that flu is not a mild cold in children. It's still a significant illness that no child should have to suffer from.

@Lweji

So, you would probably be first in line for new universal flu vaccine when released? Would you be in favour of forcing other parents to take this new vaccine? (Knowing there can be no long term studies on safety prior to release).

Also this is a different vaccine from universal flu vaccine. Try and respond to whole post and questions instead of picking sentence and applying to different subject/vaccine.

It's not a different subject. Flu exists in different shapes. "Swine flu" was thus called because it came from pigs to the human population. In fact, H1N1 caused the 1918 pandemic.
A universal flu vaccine should cover all H and N variants that have been known to cause disease in humans.

My point still stands that flu prevention is important at all ages, not just for the elderly.

The current situation is that a flu vaccine is needed every year because the immunogenic bits change all the time. So, only the most vulnerable are given it or are the targets, because it's too costly to vaccinate everyone every year.
A universal flu vaccine would only require vaccination years apart or it would be life long. So, it could be given to everyone for a similar cost. And, importantly, it would benefit every taker.

So, you would probably be first in line for new universal flu vaccine when released?

Of course.
And I'd vaccinate my child.
In fact, I've paid to have him vaccinated with new meningococcal vaccines, as well as HPV.
The only side effects have been a moody teenager.

My children are vaccinated but I think as parents we should be encouraged to reasurch and ask questions rather than blindly a going with what's expected of us.
I think a parent has a right to question what we're putting in out children's body and to make an informed choice. I'm unsure where you would truly get informed and inpartial information from though as it all appears to go through the government. May be I'm wrong

@Azeema
Yes I would/am more than willing to be a flu vaccine Guinea pig.
I've had real flu once dam near killed me and I'll gladly take anything going that could help prevent me from ever getting it again.
I hadn't heard about the new vaccine will be asking at my drs appointment tomorrow about it so thanks for that happy piece of news 😊

I'm unsure where you would truly get informed and inpartial information from though as it all appears to go through the government.

You could sift through trial reports, but the average person would have some trouble even understanding the terms.
And we don't usually have the time to analyse every piece of information regarding everything we do or put in our bodies.
Do we feel the need to read independent reports about food we put in our mouths? We don't.

Governments don't want to spend money on useless or dangerous medicine.
It's not easy to get approval for public release and even less to get something available through national health services. In general, thus, if it's available through health authorities I will trust it enough.

I'm not an advocate of compulsory vaccination either, but at some point it's a debate work having.

That's kind of my point, all the evidence is one sided, yes it may just be a positive thing to vaccinate that's why all the evidence appears to point that way, or the sceptacle part of me says who's making loads of money through vaccinations!! Well the drugs companies, who probably help fund the reasurch so is it really impartial?
I wander how scewiff it all is? And who benefits the most and also about the fear that the government put on to parents. Like I say maybe it's all genuine and of course you do need to trust its all correct but I'm a little sceptacle.

Azeema
Unfortunately the other baby also died but sometime later.
The mother was unvaccinated and unaware she had the virus.
It wasn't disclosed whether she had the option of vaccination.
I don't think 1st world residing people realise the fragility of infants and how quickly vaccinations have reduced infant mortality rates. We were very unlucky but it could definately have been avoided.

That's kind of my point, all the evidence is one sided, yes it may just be a positive thing to vaccinate that's why all the evidence appears to point that way, or the sceptacle part of me says who's making loads of money through vaccinations!! Well the drugs companies, who probably help fund the reasurch so is it really impartial?

Do you ever take paracetamol? Any medicine?
Why are vaccines so different from any medicine or food?

A healthy dose of scepticism is good, but I don't see the point in being sceptical about one specific thing (vaccines) and trust the government and drugs companies in others.

Even worse, when people will rather trust mumbo jumbo without any studies at all, or that have been demonstrated to be useless to dangerous.

I love how people question the impartiality of academic research with zero knowledge and experience of how it actually works... then uses that as a reason to be skeptical about expert advice. The world has gone mad.

I think the answer to where to go for impatial information is 'cochrane'.

Its where I go when I don't know much about a particular treatment or its supposed efficacy, or the alternatives.

TBF, drugs companies tend to hide bad results. It's a well known practice, which is not to mean that everything that comes out of drugs companies is bad or useless.
Taking it with a pinch of salt, as with most things, I'm more willing to accept that some new drugs are close to useless than dangerous.
Same with vaccines.

Conversely, people will blindly believe that "organic" foods, for which they pay 50% or more for, will give them much better health and really are free from pesticides, etc. No distrust in relation to farmers who can easily be making false claims. They are no better than drugs companies.

If you're choosing not to vaccinate your child for anything other than medical reasons, you're a shit parent. A shit, neglectful parent who shouldn't have children. And a shit person in general, too. No exceptions.

It is terrifying that this is thought process of so many women in ‘social services’. You want children taken away from parents who make the conscious and educated decision to not vaccinate because you can’t come to grips with your irrational fears.

I’m reading this thread and feeling (sadly) reassured that only the most insane, controlling and cruel people enter social services. Get a grip.

There hasn’t been one double blind, placebo controlled study performed on the health and effectiveness of vaccines compared to those who aren’t vaccinated. Until there is, you should hold your tongues and your hide your pitch forks. Yikes!

Most parents that don’t vaccinate are parents who did vaccinate bit stopped due to their children suffering an adverse reaction. These parents aren’t neglecting their children they’re protecting them from further damage. My own nephew has brain damage from a vaccine. My SIL has met many, many parents in the last 24 years who have the exact same story to tell.

To add most adults aren’t up to date on vaccines. Vaccine immunity wears off. His many adults make sure they are up to date!