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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Elizabeth I??

190 replies

malibuloving · 18/08/2019 21:00

I’m trying to broaden my historical knowledge and I’m reading a bit about the Tudors and I was wondering if people thing that Elizabeth I thought her mum, Anne Boleyn was innocent of the trumped up charges her father Henry VIII accused her off to execute her as she had a locket with her and her mother’s portrait in which she wore until her death but she didn’t go back and change the law saying her parents marriage was legitimate like her elder sister Mary did when she was on the throne to her parents marriage.

So I’m asking do you think she thought her mother was innocent? Thanks all Smile

OP posts:
malibuloving · 19/08/2019 10:35

@SarahAndQuack

Why did the Victorians have that view and why do you think it took so long for people to question it?

OP posts:
SarahAndQuack · 19/08/2019 10:46

It's nation-building propaganda. For a long time, the UK was at war with Catholic nations (eg. France) and pretty friendly with places like Germany (cradle of Lutheranism). So you have vested interests in representing the Catholics as the enemy and the Protestants as the good guys. Then, when Victorian came to the throne, people were looking back at other queens, and so I think that put a greater emphasis on the Tudor period in general.

There's a lot of mythologising of 'Englishness' that goes on. Eamon Duffy is the person to read if you want an argument that English Catholicism was quite a nice thing and not as much about superstition as all that.

I think people did start questioning these views, but it amazes me how anti-Catholic people can still be in the UK. Partly I think it's just such a good story, too - really defined bad and good people, lots of drama.

JacquesHammer · 19/08/2019 10:56

Totally agree Sarah

Plus on a very superficial level, old, ailing Mary vs young, attractive Elizabeth.

It’s almost the stuff of fiction isn’t it? The young beautiful princess and the wicked older half-sister!

SarahAndQuack · 19/08/2019 10:57

YY, absolutely! Poor Mary.

malibuloving · 19/08/2019 10:58

I think Mary and Elizabeth’s relationship was quite sad actually. Didn’t Mary care for Elizabeth when she was younger? I think it was a downwards spiral after Henry died and then more so when Edward died snd cut them both out

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Allington · 19/08/2019 11:03

'The Sisters Who Would Be Queen' by Leanda de Lisle is about the Grey sisters. Her take is that Jane was a committed Protestant who was willing to take the risk of ascending the throne to prevent Catholic Mary becoming Queen.

The Act of Succession excluded Henry VIII's sister Margaret and her descendants, so the line was supposed to go through the younger sister - Mary Rose.

She only had surviving daughters, though, and the Grey sisters were the children of the older daughter (Frances), who ALSO only had girls survive childhood, as did the younger daughter (Eleanor). And being monarch was not considered a Suitable Job for a Woman.

Lady Jane, the oldest. Her mother and sisters were back at court serving Mary within months of her execution. That must have been an interesting family dynamic...

Then Katherine, who made a secret marriage to the son of the Duke of Somerset (ex-Protector of Edward VI who was executed). Elizabeth was furious when she found out (due to Katherine's pregnancy) and sent them both to the Tower and declared the marriage invalid. They had 2 sons, the second conceived while they were both still in the Tower, supposedly kept away from each other Grin . Katherine died very young, still imprisoned. The older son was, according to the Act of Succession, the legal heir to the throne when Elizabeth died, given that there weren't really any grounds for saying his parents marriage was invalid.

The third sister was Mary - she was noticeably short, and possibly had a condition that caused dwarfism. She also made a secret marriage, to a soldier quite a bit lower down the social scale. They were also imprisoned - but in separate places this time, just to make sure - Mary at Chequers. He died a few years later, and eventually Mary was allowed to go and live with her mother, then was allowed back to court but died of the plague a year later, still in her early 30s.

malibuloving · 19/08/2019 11:10

@Allington

That’s awfully tragic.

So why didn’t Katherine Grey’s son become King once Elizabeth died? He would have been Great grandson of Mary, Henry VIII sister so surely that would have followed the Act of Succession which put the sisters Mary and Elizabeth on the throne? As Elizabeth didn’t name an heir, did she?

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Allington · 19/08/2019 11:52

Elizabeth deliberately didn't name an heir - there were lots swirling around (and being put in the Tower!), it basically came down to who had the support to take the throne.

Katherine's son was a possible, but James' supporters were well organised and acted quickly. Possession was 9/10s of the law! James was very crafty about it as well, and implied that he would relax some of the burdens Elizabeth had placed on Catholics, without any definite promises, so he got some support there.

Antonia Fraser's book about the Gunpowder Plot is very good on James and Catholic leaders in England.

Leandra de Lisle has a book on the succession to Elizabeth
www.amazon.com/After-Elizabeth-Scotland-Struggle-England/dp/0345450469?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Triglesoffy · 19/08/2019 11:53

Whenever I see Grey I think of Christian. Imagine if he was real and the direct heir! Grin
Sorry.

Brahumbug · 19/08/2019 16:11

Interestingly, Elizabeth never said that she 'didn't want to make a window into men's souls', it was attributed to her by Francis Bacon. I do love the quote 'My Lord, I had forgotten the fart' to Edward de Verre, though that maybe untrue as well

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 19/08/2019 16:11

I choose to believe the latter was a real quote!

PrivateIsles · 19/08/2019 16:34

Just echoing the recommendations for Antonia Fraser, she's absolutely excellent at writing readable, page-turning history. The Gunpowder Plot mentioned above is one of my favourite books, it's fantastic.

Have really enjoyed this thread - I did A'Level history and we were one of the few schools that didn't study the Tudors so I don't know much about them either, apart from Antonia Fraser! And Horrible Histories Grin (I've got their song about the six wives, "Divorced, Beheaded and Died" going round in my head now!).

MyNameIsJane · 19/08/2019 16:51

@diddlesticks I’ve not RTFT so I don’t know yet if I am the only one recommending the Shardlake series by C J Sansom - it is fiction but the historical side of it is well researched.

Bobbindobbin · 19/08/2019 17:05

I really recommend the Henry 8th mini series with Ray Winstone

Bobbindobbin · 19/08/2019 17:06

And Wolf Hall

ForalltheSaints · 19/08/2019 17:29

@malibuloving assuming that an annulment had been granted, and that then the same Royal children of Henry VIII had been born, I would assume it would have been whomever succeeded Elizabeth.

DarlingNikita · 19/08/2019 17:42

Just marking place to catch up later. Love this period of history.

malibuloving · 19/08/2019 17:44

Hahah yes, it’s very intriguing @DarlingNikita

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SoonerthanIthought · 19/08/2019 17:48

Why did Henry exclude his sister Margaret from the successsion, does anyone know?

One of the many women (in her case a girl) who I think was treated very badly is Catherine Howard. She was only 17 when she married henry - and aiui her family (uncle was Duke of Norfolk) pushed for it, sending her into an obviously very dangerous situation for any woman but particularly for a 17 yr old.

I think the original BBC series, 6 wives of Henry VIII, is still one of the clearest introductions - others will know how accurate it is but it did address the politics/religion as well as portraying the relationships. (though I don't think I would watch the torture scenes now.) I think it's available on dvd.

contrary13 · 19/08/2019 17:52

Pretty sure that if her parents marriage wasn't deemed lawful, she'd not have been (a) in line to the throne and (b) permitted to ascend to it.

Henry VIII had bastards - Henry Carey, for crying out loud, who was also Elizabeth I's first-cousin (and possible his sister Catherine). There was also Henry Fitzroy, who was in line - with Henry VIII's blessing - to marry his own half-sister, Mary, at one point, so...

I think she knew that politicians lie, even back then, that her mother was scapegoated because she couldn't carry a male heir to term, and her father's eye had wandered to Jane Seymour (whose family machinated for the marriage to their own ends... had Jane not died shortly after providing the male heir? She would have gone the same way as Anne Boleyn, in my opinion).

gwenneh · 19/08/2019 18:03

So why didn’t Katherine Grey’s son become King once Elizabeth died?

Katherine Grey's exclusion from the succession likely had to do with the Spanish ambition to put her on the throne. De Feria the Spanish ambassador's had correspondence with Spain around 1559 which indicated she would be a likely central piece for a plot to replace Elisabeth on the throne, as long as Katherine would agree to be Catholic. Which, fairly wisely, she never did.

The Spanish involvement meant Elisabeth naming Katherine or her issue as heir would potentially mean the end of England as a sovereign nation or a messy civil war at best since Mary I's wedding to Philip was EXTREMELY unpopular and even naming Katherine as heir would have caused an uproar.

gwenneh · 19/08/2019 18:05

What do those of you who are saying Henry Carey was Henry VIII's son think of Alison Weir's treatment of the evidence -- which seems pretty clear against.

AlexaAmbidextra · 19/08/2019 19:59

It is only supposition that Henry Carey was Henry VIII’s son. Henry VIII openly admitted that Elizabeth Blount’s son was his but never admitted the same for Henry Carey.

Allington · 19/08/2019 20:19

Elizabeth refused to name an heir because she did not want a rival - the endless civil wars of the Wars of the Roses showed what could happen where the legitimacy of the monarch was questioned, and she was vulnerable in an era when female leadership was considered unnatural and unGodly. Better to keep the question in the air, and the opposition disunited among the various candidates.

Plus, of course, possible candidates locked up (Arbella Stuart) or executed (Mary QoS) so they couldn't drum up support.

History repeated itself - Arbella Stuart (cousin of James through Margaret, the sister of Henry VIII) made a secret marriage to Katherine Grey's grandson, for which she was imprisoned in the Tower and died young.

Allington · 19/08/2019 20:20

Imprisoned by James, that is...

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