Elizabeth I??

[malibuloving]

I’m trying to broaden my historical knowledge and I’m reading a bit about the Tudors and I was wondering if people thing that Elizabeth I thought her mum, Anne Boleyn was innocent of the trumped up charges her father Henry VIII accused her off to execute her as she had a locket with her and her mother’s portrait in which she wore until her death but she didn’t go back and change the law saying her parents marriage was legitimate like her elder sister Mary did when she was on the throne to her parents marriage.

So I’m asking do you think she thought her mother was innocent? Thanks all

Still not getting the 'natural justice' TBH. I would say it's a pretty artificial situation all round. Plus they'd just come out of more than a century of people arguing about who was the 'natural' successor to whom.

I've never thought Henry had a terribly high sex drive. I know he had an illegitimate son, but compared with some kings he didn't really shag around that much. I reckon he liked the romance but the actual sex, not so much

Henry probably had more than one illegitimate child, but yeah, by the standards of medieval kids, he wasn't that much of a shagger. That notion of Henry was heavily promoted in 'The Tudors' but there's not that much evidence of it.

He seemed to be a classic example of a man who loves the chase and then got bored and starting looking elsewhere. All his wives were the opposite of what went before: From pious, ageing Cathering to the sexy, sophisticated Anne, then to Plain Jane Seymour, and so on.

It wasn't so much the woman herself he was interested in, but the idea of her.

@malibuloving. Seven years AFAIK, but Henry was allowed bosom access prior to that. His letters about Anne's, er, two key points are preserved.

One of the reasons this period is so gripping is that most of the original material survives about it - love letters, meetings, etc - with the notable exception of the Boleyn trial.

I think he quite well liked money and power more than he liked women as sex objects. He knew illegitimate children were a waste of time and focused on trying to impregnate his wives for the heir. But I think the whole combination was probably very intoxicating for young women, impressed by all the opulence and ‘manliness’

Can highly recommend this book for more insight. Found it fascinating.

Elizabeth's Women: The Hidden Story of the Virgin Queen g.co/kgs/YPVy75

But wasn’t the blatant ‘natural’ successor Mary? Henry VIII died and his children were his heirs, the male line first which died with his son Edward. Then surely it would follow his act of succession and also the normal way of succession with the eldest daughter and then the younger daughter? Surely Jane Grey wouldn’t have even come into the picture until Elizabeth died many years later, childless? At which point Jane Grey would be very elderly or dead.

Not blaming her whatsoever though, I think she was pushed and controlled by her parents and power grasping men.

Oh, I totally agree Mary was the logical successor. I just feel a bit uncomfortable with framing it as 'natural justice' and 'ooh yay, thank goodness for that' when it's such a horrible thing. You know? It's a particular way of doing history that doesn't quite sit right with me, because they were people too.

Yes, agree completely with that.

Henry had the Duke of Richmond (who died age 18 or so) by an early GF then a son by Mary Boleyn, Anne's sister.

Henry became impotent quite young - Edward VI was the last proof he could have sex. He never had affairs after that, either.Or got his mojo back.

Thomas Cromwell had to quell a deeply humiliating rebellion in Parliament when H was accused of rejected Anne of Cleves because he couldn't get it up.

Katharine Howard was thought to have complained about it, hastening her murder somewhat.

But wasn’t the blatant ‘natural’ successor Mary? Henry VIII died and his children were his heirs, the male line first which died with his son Edward. Then surely it would follow his act of succession and also the normal way of succession with the eldest daughter and then the younger daughter? Surely Jane Grey wouldn’t have even come into the picture until Elizabeth died many years later, childless? At which point Jane Grey would be very elderly or dead.

Not when the legitimacy of both was in question.

Even if she thought her mother was innocent (which is likely), Elizabeth would never have been stupid enough to overturn something enforced by another monarch - to do would be dangerous, especially as Elizabeth had a flimsy claim to the throne in the eyes of many. She was thought a bastard, and of course there was conflict with the catholics too. I think on the whole Elizabeth knew she couldn't rock the boat too much . She was lucky Henry VIII even put her back in the line of succession in the first place (which he probably did as a gesture, he likely thought Edward would live longer than he did and produce heirs of his own).

Re. Jane Grey, she was named as successor by Edward. Edward and his advisors did not want a catholic Queen (Mary), but there was no way he could pass it to Elizabeth and disinherit Mary. So he said it was going to Jane as Mary and Elizabeth we're both declared illegitimate.

I just feel a bit uncomfortable with framing it as 'natural justice' and 'ooh yay, thank goodness for that' when it's such a horrible thing. You know?

I didn't say rhe second sentence. I don't think it's anything glorious to "celebrate" someone's death but this is just my view of how events panned out. Perhaps "natural justice" is the wrong phrase here. What phrase would you prefer?

Try monarchy with Dave starkey as a good base. Admittley Dave Starkey is not the most enthralling person but the facts are interesting. I love the Tudor’s and also big Victoria buff as well

diddlesticks I am fascinated by Persian history, so I was determined to read 1001 Arabian Nights in the original script. I read the edited version when I was very young (I probably shouldn’t have) and found this one on Kindle for free. I read all the footnotes and everything. It took me 2 whole years!!!! Alongside other reading but still... Pure Hollywood with bloody fights, riches, , amazing food, beautiful women, powerful rulers, fantasy creatures, good wins against evil, everything. I know it’s envisaged as a manifesto in support of religion but I read it for all the references to different cultures.

I don't know what phrase I'd use - and sorry, I didn't mean to upset you and I think I have. I know you didn't say the second bit, it was just how I felt that sounded.

I guess it's also the 'too much trouble' bit. It just feels wrong to me to write about it like that. It's very much how old-fashioned historians do write, I know. I had textbooks that took that sort of tone. I just find it unintentionally callous.

The Lady Elizabeth book by Alison Weir is a fascinating read - it’s surprising she made it to the throne at all.

Yes apparently it’s very good? Is it an easy read @Ziggy

It’s a very good read. It’s one of my ‘comfort books’ so my poor copy is very ragged.

I have to speak up for Katherine of Aragon - who was a great wife to Henry who he just cast off in a midlife crisis and real fear that if he didn't leave a son the whole War of the Roses type civil war would start up again. My favourite story about Katherine which shows she wasn't just a pious nobody as often portrayed is that one time when Henry was off fighting (the French I think), and the Scots invaded, it was Katherine who raised an army and lead it (as a figurehead) to see off the Scots.

I like her too. Her mum was a warrior queen. She'd seen it a lot.

As do I. In many ways KoA and Anne Boleyn were the most interesting and were put through the most by Henry. In my opinion, of course

@herculepoirot2 - Jane Grey's husband was the son of the Duke of Northumberland, not the son of Edward VI's uncle, the Lord Protector, who was Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset.

Northumberland later emerged as leader of Edward VI's Council after Seymour's imprisonment on treason charges and execution (which, incidentally, Edward took rather calmly, judging by his diary entry: "the duke of Somerset had his head cut off upon Tower Hill between eight and nine o'clock in the morning") This left Northumberland in an ideal position to influence the young king in changing the succession in favour of his daughter-in-law Jane Grey, and a hoped-for grandson.

In fact, originally, Edward nominated not Jane herself but "the L' Janes heires masles,". When it became obvious that Edward was likely to die before Jane produced an heir, it was changed to "the L' Jane and her heires masles."

Both Henry VIII and Edward VI excluded the descendants of Henry's older sister, Margaret in favour of those of his younger sister Mary, but of course it was Margaret's great-grandson James VI of Scotland who eventually succeeded Elizabeth.

Whether or not one likes Starkey, his work on the Tudors is excellent. His TV programme, the Forgotten Tudors really gave an insight into both Mary and Edward.

I can recommend Legacy by Susan Kay as a stand out novel about Elizabeth, as well as the Margaret George Elizabeth I.

I think Elizabeth was bloody brilliant and walked her own path within the constraints of her time. I also think she was an atheist, or at least an agnostic, hence she wasn't going to enquire too closely into people's beliefs as long as the outward observances were met. The Via Media was genius, balancing RCism alongside Puritanism. To an extent, the broad church that is the current Anglican communion carries on the Via Media today.

Her avoidance of marriage, whilst using her potential marriage as a bargaining chip was masterful, and she realised that had she married an English noble, all hell would have broken loose. I think she did love Leicester, but knew she couldn't have him, at least publicly.

She wasn't afraid to use the talent around her, like Burleigh and Walsingham, and I suppose had to show all the time that she had bigger balls than the men around her. She managed to control them, unlike MQoS.

I can also recommend Wolf Hall and Bring Up The Bodies by Hilary Mantel. I am just re-reading them, prior to the release of the final part of the trilogy this year. These give you the story of the divorce and Anne's time as queen and downfall.

It was the Earl of Warwick, whose claim was from George, Duke of Clarence, and whose sister was Margaret Pole, who was executed.

Have a look at ‘Anne of the Thousand Days’. Superbly acted account of Henry and Anne's courtship and marriage.