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Original poster

Elizabeth I??

190 replies

malibuloving · 18/08/2019 21:00

I’m trying to broaden my historical knowledge and I’m reading a bit about the Tudors and I was wondering if people thing that Elizabeth I thought her mum, Anne Boleyn was innocent of the trumped up charges her father Henry VIII accused her off to execute her as she had a locket with her and her mother’s portrait in which she wore until her death but she didn’t go back and change the law saying her parents marriage was legitimate like her elder sister Mary did when she was on the throne to her parents marriage.

So I’m asking do you think she thought her mother was innocent? Thanks all Smile

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SirJamesTalbot · 18/08/2019 22:14

Im not sure Lady Jane Grey was as innocent as all that when she was proclaimed Queen. She was staunchly Protestant and was a Royal great niece wuth ambitious parents. She would know how courts worked. This could have been her big opportunity. Unfortunately for her, natural justice prevailed and Mary triumphed as the lawful heir without too much trouble.

AnneElliott · 18/08/2019 22:15

I recommend the books by Alison Weir. She's written a number on the Tudors and I really enjoy them.

diddlesticks · 18/08/2019 22:15

Ah phew @malibuloving! Everyone seems so knowledgeable and intellectual on this thread and I know Reign isn't exactly historically accurate. I really enjoyed it though and it introduced an interest in history I had never had before.

herculepoirot2 · 18/08/2019 22:16

Im not sure Lady Jane Grey was as innocent as all that when she was proclaimed Queen. She was staunchly Protestant and was a Royal great niece wuth ambitious parents. She would know how courts worked. This could have been her big opportunity. Unfortunately for her, natural justice prevailed and Mary triumphed as the lawful heir without too much trouble.

She was a kid with no choice as to who she married or whether she became Queen.

Thatnovembernight · 18/08/2019 22:16

I think she knew her mother was innocent but was also aware that she was a controversial figure and didn’t want to be seen as taking sides, even so long after her death.

For me the real intrigue is whether Katherine of Aragon and Prince Arthur did/didn’t consummate their marriage. I find it so unlikely. She was only allowed to marry Henry on the basis that she had not slept with his brother. If she lied then technically Mary would have been illegitimate etc etc

ArnoldBee · 18/08/2019 22:17

Edward didn't want Jane Grey on the throne his will or device was written for her male heirs to inherit hiwever when he died she didn't have any so had to amend his will. Elizabeth as we know wasn't married at this point and he wanted to carry on the male stability issue that plagued his father. If he had legitimized Mary and Elizabeth during his reign things would have got very complicated especially for him.

diddlesticks · 18/08/2019 22:17

Thanks to those who recommended books. I'm excited to request them from the library.

SirJamesTalbot · 18/08/2019 22:17

I think Anne was condemned as a witch, she could have been burned alive but this was commuted to beheading. She was doomed and probably knew it from the moment she was arrested.

SarahAndQuack · 18/08/2019 22:17

What's 'natural justice' there? Confused

It's murky at best.

I agree JG probably wasn't an innocent sighing little thing, but her parents were pretty obviously coercive bastards (like all the other parents in this story, I suppose).

I don't see there being any particular moral justice to a 16 year old girl being put to death.

SkaterGrrrrl · 18/08/2019 22:18

"@SarahAndQuack But that doesn’t make sense to me? Elizabeth was raised in the Church of England and never had Catholic values or upbringing like Mary did, so why would her religious beliefs be questioned?"

Her position was precarious ...people were executed for being Catholic or Protestant ... she didn't know who was going to rise to the throne. She had to dissemble.

Original poster
malibuloving · 18/08/2019 22:18

@AnneElliott Is Children of England or the Lady Elizabeth any good?

@diddlesticks
It actually inspired me, along with The Tudor’s, to learn actual accurate historical knowledge! Quite ironic

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herculepoirot2 · 18/08/2019 22:19

Thatnovembernight

He was only 14. And not particularly healthy, as far as I understand. They were only married 6 months. The consummation of their marriage would have been planned. But I agree with you, it seems a little unlikely.

QueenOfThorns · 18/08/2019 22:20

Elizabeth by David Starkey is good. It amazed me how many letters and other documents from the period survive, so the actual words of these figures can still be read!

Branster · 18/08/2019 22:20

diddlesticks I read all the books by Alison Weir and Phillipa Gregory. I did not learn English history at school and this was a topic quite unknown to me. The books gave me a direction to get more independent in-depth knowledge on this subject and I know more about the Tudors and the two generations before than my entire English born and bread family!
They are very easy to read but they have very useful references and there were a couple of books of actual history study which I found interesting.
I particularly like the way history plays out across the world pre 1900s and how different people and nations interacted with each other. I’m forever choosing an era and a country trying to learn more and aiming to fit the pieces together. I found fiction on a particular history subject draws me in to try and discover the real history on my own.

SarahAndQuack · 18/08/2019 22:20

Everyone seems so knowledgeable and intellectual on this thread and I know Reign isn't exactly historically accurate. I really enjoyed it though and it introduced an interest in history I had never had before.

@diddlesticks, I got into history/the Tudors after reading a totally inappropriately explicit, bonk-buster novel about Elizabeth (in which she's a shag-a-minute type), when I was 12 or so. It had somehow found its way into our school library. Grin

Mothership4two · 18/08/2019 22:22

She was politically savvy so why rock the boat? Anne Boleyn was very unpopular (and many thought she was a witch), so she probably didn't want any public connection to her. She had grown up in a precarious position and would have been well aware of her father's foibles so I expect she realised her mother was innocent. She wouldn't have wanted anything to be used against her or her position as regent.

SarahAndQuack · 18/08/2019 22:22

David Starkey's books are semi-ok, but DS himself is an utter, utter knob. Really really. He's made some horrible comments about women historians and seems to be racist as well. Just for what it's worth.

Original poster
malibuloving · 18/08/2019 22:22

Does anyone know who the boy/man who had to be executed for Katherine to come over from Spain and marry Arthur, and later his brother? It was one of Henry and Arthur’s mothers York/Plantagenet cousins wasn’t it? Or did I make that up Blush

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herculepoirot2 · 18/08/2019 22:22

And I love The Tudors show! You can’t love the period and hate that show, even with its inaccuracies.

herculepoirot2 · 18/08/2019 22:23

malibuloving

Edward of Warwick

noodlenosefraggle · 18/08/2019 22:23

skatergrrl I'm in the middle of a Phillip pa Gregory obsession. I'm on the 'cousins war' series. I didn't know much about the Wars of the Roses and the start of the Tudors, but its fascinating. More Mediaeval 'The Crown' than documentary, but pretty fascinating anyway.

GotToGoMyOwnWay · 18/08/2019 22:24

I don’t believe KofA marriage to Arthur was consummated. Katherine was deeply religious & swore she was a maid (ie virgin) when she married Henry - I don’t think she’d have lied as she would have thought her soul was in peril. Unless she went to confession straight after of course.

Original poster
malibuloving · 18/08/2019 22:25

@herculepoirot2
Ahh at least I’m not the only one then! Edward of Warwick founds familiar, was he siblings with Margaret Pole?

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CaveMum · 18/08/2019 22:25

“Innocent Traitor” is a very good (historical fiction) book about Lady Jane Grey.

I remember watching the Helena Bonham-Carter film about her at school in the mid-90s and becoming utterly fascinated by her.

CalliopeCat · 18/08/2019 22:25

Elizabeth never had much security - her mother was murdered when she was a child, her father could have had he shoved in any number of places at any time so she learned to be careful and measured about what she said and did. Her first lesson was basically protect yourself at all costs (which brings up the cult of Elizabeth and all that which was about managing and protecting her image to keep her in power.)

Its part of the reason Mary Queen of Scots was killedElizabeth couldn't risk anything that might make her position unsafe - which is again why she could never get marriedbeing a proper wife would have meant bowing down to her husband and a queen couldn't do that. Also she was literally risking her life if she got pregnant which again she couldn't do.

Look into the Cult of Elizabeth if you want to understand her a bit more.

www.historyextra.com/people/elizabeth-i/ has loads of stuff to get you started.