To think an American/Canadian childhood seems nicer than a British one?

[WilsonandJackie]

I know I probably am BU as stuff like this will always be a "grass is greener" situation and I can't judge a place based on a holiday (have just returned from 10 days visiting a friend and her husband who moved to Pennsylvania 9 years ago) but I really did notice some things while I was there that have me wondering. I know America has it's issues like the UK with poverty etc and is in an absolutely dire state at the moment politically but I was amazed at how different the children and teenagers over there's lives seem to be.

My friend's live in a suburban neighbourhood outside a big city. The neighbourhood kids (know I shouldn't judge it it over one neighbourhood I spent 10 days in but I live in a neighbourhood of a similar socioeconomic class in the UK which is nothing like this) seemed to be living such an idyllic childhood. Kids out playing on bikes on the roads, climbing trees, building dens, in and out of each others houses. I didn't think kids that age did that anymore, it was like a flashback to the 80s and it felt quite lovely. We're talking kids who are 12-14 years old. They seem on a completely different planet to kids in the UK of the same age. I'd see them riding their bikes to school each morning and they looked genuinely happy, in their own clothes rather than a depressing formal uniform (I hate uniforms with a passion, much prefer the system of a dress code). There were some kids who were smoking weed I admit, but it just looked a different apmostphere. They weren't in tracksuits standing outside a corner shop and intimidating people (yes I see this every day in the UK in my "naice" area, didn't see it once in the US), they just seemed to be laughing with their friends in their gardens.

My friends have 2 kids (girl 16 boy 14), they are completely Americanized and you'd have no idea they were born in Yorkshire. The DD drives now and has a job in a diner, so she earns her own wage. Her school finished in June and isn't back until September, so gets 3 months to let her hair down. While we were visiting her and her friends ended up renting a minivan and all drove to a spot 2 hours away (it's meant to be a sort of mountain range with outstanding natural beauty) to camp. Yes there was probably booze and maybe bud, I'm not oblivious, but the pictures seemed lovely. Gorgeous scenery, campfire etc. They all returned next morning and her friend gave her a lift to work on her way to her own shift. Her brother is very sporty and his friends were round a lot practising basketball in the back yard and then they jumped on their bikes to go to another house. Both kids and their friends seem so carefree and happy. In a way they seemed more independent than teens I'm used to, but also seemed to have had more of a childhood. The schools looked nicer, I know there's still bullying and badly behaved kids etc but none of the schools we droved past looked like the ones I'm used to. I'm used to crumbling concrete blocks that haven't had any money spent on them since 1973 and kids in grim uniforms walking in looking like clones of each other. Whenever I see kids walking to school at home they always look so bloody depressed. I think the middle school system is fab. Why are we chucking kids who may have only just turned 11 into a huge building with kids who may be nearing 17 and expecting them to get on with it? They go from being the oldest, the "big kids" in primary to suddenly being chucked into secondary with no transistion. No wonder they feel under so much pressure to grow up quickly. I'd have paid for my kids to do a middle school system. My 2 boys high school experience along with my own were horrendous. They were both under so much pressure by Year 9 and had no energy to do anything. For 2 years every other bloody word was "GCSE". Even in the holiday's they just wanted to rest. Only went out with friends to KFC or to doss in someone's living room and have a takeaway. Meanwhile my friend's DS at 14 still plays out and lives and breathes his basketball. DS's both insist a kid who was always playing football would have got bullied and teased in their school.

The UK just seems depressing, and my friend's have said the same. My friend's own words were "You couldn't pay me to take my kids back to the UK now. There's so many more oppurtunities for them over here and they are both so much happier than I remember being at their age. We are never coming back." I still love the UK, and would never move to the US because of stuff like Trump and the godawful healthcare system etc. But forgetting stuff like that and just thinking about the kind of apmostphere I'd want to raise DC in, I'd choose the US any day of the week. I've heard of many people who have gone to the US and Canada with kids and have stated that their kids are doing amazing there. My friends knew another family who emigrated to Canada and eventually the parents came back but the DC (late teens who had been there 5 years) downright refused.

"Middle class" is such a ridiculous, ridiculous term. I can't believe that people still use it.
Everyone is equal in worth.

Em, Angel, not using the term middle class doesn’t magically make the middle class disappear. And every country has a middle class, though I’m sure how integrated the classes are varies a bit. Poverty, riches, the bit in the middle don’t disappear because the class system is bad.

I’m not sure if you need to read economic theory, or history, or if you’re just explaining yourself really badly.

@angell84 but everyone is not treated equally by society. If you think there isn't still a class system you are kidding yourself.

Because there is no class. The class system is incredibly old and antiquated, and out of all the countries that I go to in Europe, I only ever here it referred to in England. It always makes me cringe with disbelief, it is so old fashioned.
I was reading a different forum recently, and on that forum, a foreigner wrote that he was staying with his friend in England. The English friend said that he was "middle class", but that when he goes to visit his mechanic, he puts on a "working class" accent so that the mechanic thinks that he is "one of them", and gives him a good price.
The foreigner said he looked at his friend in amazement.

If you don't see how derogatory a class system is, shame on you.

Oh dear. What utter rot.

Pretending class systems do not exist is really unhelpful.

All that does is allow inequality and inequity to be swept under the carpet, and lets the status quo carry on unchecked.

The stereotypes about the US in these threads always make me crazy, it is a big country and there are lots of pros and cons just like the UK. Some things posted here are totally wrong too, there is absolutely a social safety net in the US, many states have free healthcare for children regardless of income and college is free in many states too based either on income or grades. Ivy League colleges are also free if you make under a certain amount of money. If anything it is the middle class that gets squeezed, they are the ones who have to pay full freight for college and health insurance. Everyone just hears the worst case scenario, all americans hear about the UK is waiting lists for surgery etc. All people in the UK hear about is big bills for healthcare. The reality is less dramatic in both countries. Insurance in the US covers most things and there is often no copay and the quality of care is typically excellent.

The whole no flexibility/leave thing at work is also very outdated, the millennial workforce has forced this to change, more people than ever have flexible job arrangements, more time off, work from home etc.
The person who posted about the policeman dying not getting news is also absolutely wrong, I am visiting California right now, a police officer died the other day and it was all over the local news. Because it is a big country not everything is news nationwide but it doesn't mean the affected community doesn't care. Yes the gun thing is an issue but no one I know here is particularly concerned about it. We are planning to move to CA from the UK next year as DH is from here and have concluded we would prefer the downsides of the US to those of the UK.

angell84 get off your high horse.

If you're talking about income- or wealth-based snobbery - which you seem to be - then that's one thing, and I'd be the first to agree with you that it's insidious. You're right that it is also somehow much more of a problem in the UK than anywhere else in the world, with the possible exception of parts of China. I'd also point out that inverse snobbery is equally insidious.

None of this has anything to do with the economic concept of the middle class. Whether you like the idea or not, outside of North Korea the entire world exists on an income and/or wealth distribution curve. Some people are better off than others; I suggest you get over it. Whilst the definition of "middle class" varies enormously from individual to individual, never mind society to society the reality is that economists, policy makers, businesses, Uncle Tom Cobley and all segment societies along that distribution curve and "the middle class" is a current and universally accepted term for what in most developed countries - including the UK - is actually the largest segment. It is neither offensive, nor very old fashioned.

I almost deleted thsi thread before posting as I was worried it would cause arguments, but now I'm really glad I posted it as this has all been a really interesting read.

Having taken in everything posters have said, I do think it's more an issue of "What are we doing wrong in the UK regarding our kids and teenagers?" than a case of the US being "nicer". I wouldn't actually move to the US, it was just nice to witness what I did when visiting friends but I understand that's a tiny portion of life. It's like an American spending a week in a posh street in London and saying how beautiful and perfect London is because they didn't end up seeing the neglected estates and gang crime on their visit. I do retain though that the British are going wrong in regards to childhood and teenagers. DS went to Rome for 4 days with school last year and said you could always spot the other British teenagers in school groups from a mile off. He states it was because all the girls are in slap, the lads loud and obnoxioius, and the kids trying to have banter with the teachers and just generally not having respect for said teachers. He says the other nationalities that were there (they stayed in a youth hostel type place so there were other Italians, some Americans, Russians etc) in clothes that were a lot more comfy looking and the girls didn't have eyebrows slapped on. And they all seemed the respect their teachers and the hostel more. Apparently each morning at breakfast his schools table was always left in a state and the teacher's had to keep asking for it to be cleaned but the other groups just seemed to clean up their mess automatically, no questions asked.

I have experienced it on holiday as well. In Spain etc I saw a few groups of British kids hanging around the resort necking booze with no sign of the parents. Didn't see this with any other nationality. And tbh, the kids hanging around outside corner shops and intimidating people isn't a class issue in my experience. I know people who have brilliant jobs (GP's lawyers etc) and their kids have been known to do this. The tragic murder of Yusef Makki shows that this goes beyond class. Boys all from good homes and at a selective private school (except Yusef who was from a poorer background and had a bursary), wanting to be surgeons and the like. End up becoming invovled in gang culture and knives purely because it's cool (but still want these good jobs when they are older, they think they can have it both ways), end up way in over their heads and a boy gets killed.

@laplayita please let me know who you are getting insurance from that has no co-pay. I’d love to have that!

angel why on earth does a description of middle class have to be "derogatory?"

My Dutch friends love to say that all Dutch are middle class now, as middle class is what decent people aspire to be, including all the traditional values associated with being middle class. It doesn't include things they see as problems in some elements of British society, such as teens on the streets abusing others, several generations of the same family on benefits, the aristocracy, etc..

In no way is it meant as a derogatory term. Its more a descriptor of a happy state of life having been achieved.

Its a bit sad that some British people immediately see it as a derogatory term and jump on the whole controlling of language thing, but do nothing positive to improve the very real problems in many elements of British society, other than trotting out the lines about it being due to poverty and inequality and the rich being too rich, etc..

@britwife I am not but we have spent the last 2 weeks with family in CA planning our move. My SIL and BIL have decent insurance through work and all routine visits have no copay on their plan, other visits have a $20 copay. They stay in network for most things. They have friends in LA who even have their Dr come to their house for annual check ups for no copay, same day appointments also available. $20 for a sick visit to your house. And that is with a very normal insurance plan (we spent a lot of time going over this stuff to evaluate whether it was feasible to move).

Wilson you are rather starry eyed about non English teens. Dd just done a Spanish exchange and experienced some pretty bad behaviour from Spanish lads(from nice families) - much worse than anything experienced in England....I have extensive experience of Italian and Spanish teen girls and they can be just as trying as their English counterparts....!

I haven't read the whole thread, but we live in Germany and I think it is vastly better for kids here than in the UK. I would love to move back to the UK for several reasons but on the other hand I would be so sad to deprive the DC of the childhood they are having here. (And other reasons meaning I'm happier here than at home but that's a big one).

No, German teenagers, schools, kids, etc aren't perfect but where is?

Also to those talking about racism, I wouldn’t deny that it’s an issue in the US. And it certainly depends where you live. But for what it’s worth, I’m not white and still think it might have been better to raise our child there. I’m not coming at this from a place of total ignorance.

@laplayita but what are your monthly premiums for that!? And not everything is covered. Check the small print.

I am Canadian and I must admit I really like my country! We live on a quiet road where kids ride their bikes, play football, and street hockey. I like that my children have had so many opportunities to pursue their interests - sports, art, and such. The winters in our area (Ottawa) are cold, yes, but we are able to ski, skate on the ‘world’s longest skating rink’ and play outdoor hockey at our local park. The neighbours join up in winter to build and flood the neighbourhood rink. Sure, there are problems here, but overall, it’s a really lovely place to live.

I lived 36 years in Britain and wouldn't move back there now (from the US) if you paid me a million. He's got a far better quality of life and more chances than he's ever have in the UK.

I see kids where I live compared to British kids and I feel really sad for the UK and my friends and family there.

@laplayita

You might want to ask your SIL and BIL whether they have a high deductible insurance. We have what's considered excellent insurance with no copays, but anything outside the standard visits allowed each year by the insurance company - one annual physical per person, a mammogram for me and routine vaccinations for the kids- is subject to the deductible - and it's $6,000 for a family! That means any visits other than those have to be paid for until we have spent $6,000 that calendar year. We can see any doctor we like for anything, but all those little visits have to be paid for until we hit the deductible (which we never do)! The benefit is that if one of us was seriously ill, we'd soon hit $6,000 and then the insurance pays for everything. So it's good in a catastrophe.

Employees also pay some of the insurance premiums - the company pays part, the other portion comes out of your pay. So you can get all the health care you want, but you'll pay for it some way or another.

In answer to the original post, I think my upbringing in the UK was far nicer than my children's here in the US. I had so much more freedom, public transport was much better - we live in a city but the transport is lousy - and although there are lots of activities, children are often run ragged going from one club to another during the school year.

Plus the three-month summer holidays are a nightmare! You literally run out of things to do and money to do them. Six weeks is so much better.

I don't know anyone who only gets two week's annual leave, though. It used to be standard, but hasn't been for several years. Most people I know get around four weeks.

This has been said eleventy billion times I know, but how idyllic is getting shot in the face in the school canteen? Brexit is depressing the fuck out of me and I feel like it’s rained all summer here, but Jesus, I’m so glad to be bringing kids up in a country with universal healthcare and less murders in schools.

Canada is just as bad as the US for racism and intolerance, the Saskatoon "Starlight Tours" and the First Nation residential schools, the last of which only closed in 1996 both spring to mind.

This has been said eleventy billion times I know, but how idyllic is getting shot in the face in the school canteen?

Gun crime is very geographically localized. It is not as widespread as the media makes it out to be.

Our kids are growing up in Canada and it’s just as idyllic as you imagine 🙂

There are positives and negatives everywhere. Having lived on both sides of the Atlantic it seems wild to me how people generalise about what a country is really like especially on the back of a couple of weeks/months seeing only selected highlights or based on their impressions from media.

I have left the Uk to go home with my children. Is it objectively better here, or there? Nearly all their family are here, as are many friends. It is definitely better for us but possibly not for others.

Well, yes the grass always looks greener and while I agree the lifestyle you paint does sound idyllic I do believe you can still find that here in the UK. All that sounds very similar to the childhood my youngest teen has. You may need to move to another area to find it but certainly not across the pond.

Define "better". I've lived in various parts of the world and I've discovered that everywhere has it's own unique charm, and it's all much of a muchness really. Assuming you are excluding poor developing countries with widespread poverty, it seems silly to try and label any country as objectively better or worse. Places are just different. They all have their own good and bad points.