To expect parents to teach their little children not to approach my dog?

[joystir59]

It happens all the time- young child screams "Little doggie" and reaches towards Dog with outstretched hands. My dog hates little children doing this and would probably snap at them if they managed to actually get their hands on him. Why don't parents teach their children to ignore strange dogs?

The only way to get them not to do that sort of thing at an earlier age is to train them with punishments so that they become too scared of punishment to follow their random toddler urges. Which might be acceptable with dogs, but seems quite a cruel way to treat a human being

Punishment training is cruel to dogs, too. I've never needed to use anything worse than a stern voice and my dogs are very well-trained.

Puppies are exuberant - but they are very eager to please - rewarding good behaviour reinforced by a very firm "NO!" for unacceptable behaviour (eg jumping up) works amazingly well, as long as you are consistent. You can't stop a dog from doing something one minute, then allow it the next. And it is the same with children.

Kindness, clarity, consistency.

My boys have always been around dogs but I drummed it into them that they always ask the owner before approaching a dog. And if the owner says no for any reason they come away immediately. It's not difficult.

My Labrador is the gentlest, softest lump and generally likes children. He has never bitten,growled or even looked like he might bite. He is well trained (gun dog) with excellent recall etc. Despite this I could never be 100% sure that if frightened or hurt that he might not snap or growl because he is a dog and not a robot. He is a sentient being and deserves to be treated with respect by everyone- including children.

I think all children should be taught to treat animals with respect. That includes not man handling them and only touching if given permission. It was something we instilled early on and never had issues, even as young children, with them crowding/pulling or being rough with other people’s dogs (or other pets). It is no excuse saying they are “inquisitive” or whatever- for both their sake and the animals they meet you should teach your children how to behave around animals. If they are too young to do that, you should keep a close eye on them in places they may well meet animals. Or keep them away until they can behave appropriately.

It goes without saying that dog owners should (and sometimes don’t) ensure their dogs are appropriately trained, and not to bring dogs known to be aggressive or fearful of children to places after they are guaranteed to meet children (for dog and children’s safety).

Not read the whole thread but just to flip things around - many dog owners let their dogs off the lead and bound up to tiny children and sniff/lick in very close proximity to their faces. That infuriates me but possibly the owners have no idea it's unreasonable behaviour. Just like the child's parents might not think to ask before stroking your dog.

If you read the whole thread you'll see many people have mentioned this... and no one thinks its acceptable.

Nor does the fact some idiots let their dogs do this (or ties their dog up outside a shop, or lets it run through a picnic) change the fact that allowing kids to approach, run at, jump on etc etc dogs, is unacceptable and dangerous (and bloody unfair on the dog and owner).

I could never be 100% sure that if frightened or hurt that he might not snap or growl because he is a dog and not a robot. He is a sentient being and deserves to be treated with respect by everyone- including children.

THIS!

YANBU. I have two very small dogs. One is particularly small and we’ve had issues where whole groups of children have surrounded him to touch him when out walking so now he’s scared. I’ve had to cross the road to avoid kids but sometimes I have to walk past them with the dogs (on leads).

Often the parent stands near by and smiles indulgently as the dogs are small so aren’t seen as a threat. Or they make a half hearted attempt to get their kids to stop.

It’s highly frustrating because they are animals and aren’t 100% predictable no matter how well I know them. I fear my dog will snap if a small child grabs at him and scares him. He’s old and becoming frail, has arthritis so feels more pain.

To the posters who have said that they have/would kick a dog that got too close to their child: if I witnessed this I would hand you a beat down that you may not walk away from. And I'm not even a dog owner. That goes for your brats too if they hurt a defenceless animal.

This. People who hurt animals are the lowest scum, right down there with paedophiles. Self defence is the only acceptable reason. I hate kids. Does that make it ok for me to boot your toddler when they come up to me and grab my coat? No. I smile at them and redirect them back to their parent like a sane person because they arent doing any harm.

A two year old that runs up to a dog going DOOOOOOOG is just being a two year old.
A parent who allows their child to run up to things on the grounds 'theyre just being a two year old' is irresponsible.

Would you allow you two year old to run along the river edge or jump in because they're shouting 'DUUUUCCCCKKK'and are just a 2 year old?

What about a horse? Would you let a two year old stand behind a horse and make a noise because 'they're just two'?

As a responsible dog owner I believe dogs should be looked after and trained properly and be on the lead/off lead at appropriate times and if they're off lead they need a higher level of recall. If there is a hazard then I put my dog back on the lead for their own safety. I don't allow them to run into potentially risky situations because "they're just a dog".

Same applies to parents. If someone has a 2 year old who doesn't understand no and will run off at random, trying to grab animals, shouting or shrieking towards them and they lack the capacity to understand how to approach animals then how about they don't put them in harm's way and blame the world for their own poor supervision and lack of responsibility.
All these parents who can't help their child running up to dogs, grabbing dogs etc sure as hell manage to keep their child under control when it's busy roads. it's selective responsibility.

LolaS lies. Absolutely. A two year old running towards my dog screeching “Spotty, Spotty” May well just be a little two year old.
Their parent or cater is however being negligent.

Just RTFT. I’ll start by saying I’m the owner of a 16 week old puppy ( 15kg currently so a fair size but still looks like a puppy so gets attention.) and the mother of a dog magnetised 9 yr old with Down syndrome who was bitten last year and not deterred.

I can see both sides personally but I fall more firmly down on the side of the dog owners.

It is universally agreed that dogs off lead and not superbly recall trained are a pain in the arse for other dog owners and the general population. But this isn’t about that. This is about dogs being approached ON the lead. So it’s irrelevant that an off lead dog did XYZ to you.

If a dog is on lead then there should be absolutely no approaching it by anyone without express permission from the owner.

All these bullshit excuses from parents who simply don’t care enough to understand dog behaviour aren’t going to matter when your child gets bitten. If an dog in on lead with an owner who is engaged in the dog’s behaviour but your little darling is still given the opportunity by you to toddle over then it’s your own damn fault in my opinion if something happens. Dog owners can only be expected to do so much, the rest is on parents.

It pisses me off that for so long I’ve taught my son to ask (and it’s taken years for the message to stick in his case.) and there are still entitled wankers think that their child should be allowed to waltz up to a dog and do as they please and the dog can have no say.

My son asked an owner if he may stroke their on lead dog and was told yes, his conduct with the dog was very closely observed and he made no mistake in his interaction. He still got bitten. Maybe the dog was in pain unknown to the owner, maybe they misjudged their dogs tolerance. It wasn’t the dog’s fault. He was just relaxing before my son asked. It wasn’t even the owners fault, they were mortified and clearly had offered their permission in good faith. Their dog was under control.

But imagine if it had been startled by a child who wasn’t being supervised? The bite still would have happened, and likely would have been worse. Would the parents have accepted responsibility? Or shouted that the dog should be put down?

These threads make me so cross because everyone who hates/dislikes dogs comes along and demands all dogs should be excellently recall trained without a thought to how much hard work goes into it.
No dog can be taught to ignore people or not to go up to people without people to practise with. It’s not possible to come across a whole park of people who are sympathetic to your cause and willing to ignore your dog to help you train them. At some point every dog owner has to take a leap of faith and practise off lead with distractions in order to produce a dog with perfect recall in any situation. That might mean they come up to your child, and no that’s not ok, but I would urge every single person here who says they would kick or hurt a dog in that situation to think of how unfair that would be to do to a dog whose owner is trying to make sure their dog is trained correctly.

A little bit of sense goes a long way.

I haven’t seen that many bullshit excuses, I’ve heard a lot of people on the thread saying they do make their children ask and they simply want the same courtesy when a dog approaches their child.

There is zero excuse for allowing a child to approach an on lead dog. If it happens by accident ( obviously distractions to parents happen) and a dog nips or bites then responsibility has to be taken by the parent when their child went into the dogs personal space. That is not the dog or owners fault.

I get your point but your dog shouldn’t be out in a public space without a muzzle if it’s that likely to “snap at them”

"responsibility has to be taken by the parent when their child went into the dogs personal space."

Likewise if an owner let's their dog invade a child's personal space. Don't whinge about the child's reaction.

I disagree personally. A dog is just as entitled to not have something over their mouth in public as we humans are. In some dogs yes, it would be sensible to walk them where any potential triggers are at a minimum. Or as I do, rent a field so you can let your dog off lead or walk them with no worry of issues. However should these be options that aren’t feasible for you, you should be able to exercise your dog on lead in a public dog walking spot without unsupervised children putting themselves in danger by throwing themselves at your dog.

I haven’t disagreed about off lead dogs, I only pointed out that dogs have to be trained how to behave off lead with distractions and that can’t be taught in a field with no one in it. All I did was urge people who may hurt a dog that comes up to them to be aware that it may be in training so it can be the kind of dog off lead that we all agree dogs should be and kicking it will help create the kind of dog that may snap and create another thread like this one.

Those that have owners who obviously are not attempting to train recall training are not what I mean.

I know a woman who used to be outraged when children did this to her dog, and rightly so, the dog was a rescue and may have been unpredictable because they were unsure of what had happened to him as a pup. Now her precious little darling does this to every dog he walks by, you would think she would have taught him better, he can't leave dogs along, even the dogs he is used to.

I think you are training a dog off lead to get used to being around people you should pick the people you are doing it around very carefully.

As a responsible owner, if you know your dog is snappy with children, to avoid any incident & subsequent prosecution, it's only sensible to give a friendly warning if anyone's child shows natural interest & excitement. Or a mini diversion off the path & to one side if possibke. If you're not happy to do that, unlike most dogwalkers in my park, then a muzzle solves the issue for all concerned.

We have two dogs, lovely creatures who've grown up with DC and their friends so very child-friendly. Both have great recall, manners and training. They don't jump or lick faces, they don't approach strangers and they return to me when anyone approaches. Despite all of that, they're still my responsibility and I take it seriously that they are still wild animals with the capacity to do harm if we relax the rules. I'd muzzle them if I suspected they'd snap at anyone, let alone a child.

We were on holiday by a harbour a few weeks back and I was stood by the harbour wall waiting for the DC to leave a shop. A little boy and his parents walked by and without any warning the little boy stuck out his arm and roughly patted one of the dogs on their heads several times. Our dog reacted well and backed away rather than exhibiting any real distress. Instead of being cross (his parents immediately apologised) I got down to his level and said to him "he loves it when you stroke him like this, but you have to ask before you can touch anyone's dogs because some dogs just don't like being touched" and taught him how to stroke the dog appropriately. It doesn't have to end badly, and you don't need to go nuts, just use it as a way to help a child learn.

Children can (and must) be taught to respect animals but you can't always guarantee you'll be able to keep their limbs away simply because children can be impulsive. So dog owners who know their dogs are a risk either keep their dogs well away from children, muzzle them in public or train their dogs a little better.

agree Underhisi, but who has access to enough people to recreate a busy park so you can train them ignore a large amount of people, including those who try and interact with them? And an empty park?

At some point, all the training you’ve done previously gets put into practise in a busy area, with unknown people. It’s scary for dog owners to take that leap because they know if their dog makes a mistake they run the risk of their dog being kicked or lost or someone worrying that the dog will bite them.

But this is about on lead dogs and their right to space, which they can only make clear in a few ways which children struggle to read, which is why parents need to take on the responsibility until the children are of an age to do it themselves. Humans have words, dog owners and parents alike should use them, for the benefit of dogs and children and to stop dogs having to use the only communication they have in order to make themselves clear. We are the evolved species after all.

I think you are training a dog off lead to get used to being around people you should pick the people you are doing it around very carefully
I agree. When we trained our pup off lead we chose an area known for having lots of dogs off lead and at certain times of the day the only people you'd ever see were off lead dogs and associated owners. It was brilliant. We then built up to large parks or beaches at quiet times (so you'd see runners and cyclists and other dog walkers). Now they are happy everywhere other than large towns/cities because it's not somewhere we took them much and have no need to.

What I don't understand on threads like these is that a responsible dog owner complains about irresponsible parents and the default response ofsomepeople is to say "yeah but but what about irresponsible dog owners". The thread isn't about irresponsible dog owners (who we all know exist!). The thread is about parents who don't bother to watch their kids,or worse as this thread shows, they excuse their children shouting and getting close to dogs and grabbing them saying "but they're just children and they're curious"

I find the dog owner mindset rather irritating for many reasons.

• you get badly judged by some for being friendly towards their dog
• you get badly judged by some for not being friendly towards their dog
• you get badly judged for avoiding their dog "she's very good" "he's harmless".
• you get judged for looking less than thrilled when their dog wants to chase the ball/frisbee that your kids are playing with
• you get judged for looking less than thrilled when their dog pops your kids' football

You literally cannot win. Who cares anyway 🤷🏾‍♀️. I'll just keep being myself, thank you, ie encouraging my kids to avoid dogs we do not know

Unfortunately, it took our very dog aggrrssive/reactive rescue dog to install in my children dog-fear. Now whenever they see another dog instead of joyfully saying "a dog!", they now fearfully say "oh no a dog!". From the start they were always told "you don't touch a dog that isn't yours!", but it took actual experience to install in them the instinctual understanding dogs can bite/hurt etc to get them to do it without me having to say anything.