to ask you to STOP using these unhelpful phrases?

[StopCallingMeTeresa]

i apologise if this turns into an essay, but...

"Supply equals demand"
or
(worse) "low milk supply is actually quite rare so probably not your problem"

I've just read yet another MN thread where someone said the 2nd one (basically suggesting that a poster with suspected low milk supply probably wasn't in the "tiny tiny" %age of women who don't produce enough milk). It fucks me right off to keep reading this nonsense on here and other breastfeeding support groups/forums because it makes women feel like their actions or perception of low milk supply are the cause... rather than a genuine medical issue which might never be fixed. If a man had erectile dysfunction caused by a non-mental health issue, would we tell him that the problem wasn't a real problem if only he'd try the right thing, mentally?

Personally, this is (obviously) an upsetting issue. I'm 2 months PP and have low milk supply; as in, I produce about 5ml per 1hr pumping session, and I can get about 30ml on an entire day's worth of hours and hours of being hooked up to a pump inbetween breastfeeds.

My baby was delivered and within 48hrs lost so much weight he was admitted into NICU for monitoring. He was shrieking with hunger when he wasn't latched on, whcih was hours and hours of every day - i got about 3hrs of sleep in the first three days of his life, after which i was pretty much told he was in such a risky position we HAD to start supplementing with formula. My baby was literally starving.

• I'm on domperidone to increase milk supply (dr is talking about stopping it now as it has had no affect).
• I've spent every day of his life on a double hospital grade pump.
• Oatmeal breakfasts, flapjacks to inrease milk. I feel sick thinking about oats these days i'm so sick of them.
• I've taken fistfuls and handfuls of supplements every day: goat's rue to develop milk ducts, fenugreek, brewer's yeast, you name it, for 2 solid months.
• I've tackled slow let down by doing extreme skin to skin kangaroo style care the last few weeks; I listen to relaxing music whilst feeding and pumping, smelling my baby and looking at him/pictures of him.

His latch has been checked. No tongue tie.

• I've done about 4 feeding "resets" where I sat in bed and did nothing but skin to skin and feed for 3 days straight while my boyfriend and mum ran around doing everything else.
• i've had other stuff like bottle feed technique checked at my local LLL group, as well as the health visitor.
• GP has checked my thyroid and prolactin levels twice now - all normal.
• We've done a weighted feed at the local support group but i'm simply not producing anywhere near normal levels of breastmilk.

There's NOTHING i can do now to ever exclusively breastfeed as intended. i simply don't produce enough milk for some reason.

... and yet i keep reading on here especially that "low milk supply is rare" (no scientific source or attributation, of course!) and "supply=demand", just like all the other lies i was told at the antenatal group about breastfeeing.

can i ask you to consider the impact on women like me the next time you are writing something like that?

by washing over what is a genuinely distressing problem as if it weren't a real problem, it doesn't contribute towards good maternal mental health and suggests it can be fixed.

sometimes, it can't.

and now i'm trying to accept that it's ok. but then i read BF support threads on here with misleading / ambiguous phrases like that and i struggle.

I'm sorry OP. In general, I think that people have gotten rude, selfish and cruel lately. I dread going on errands lately.

But to you. Your baby's health is most important. Do what you need and to those who judge? They aren't important are they?

I bf both dc. But I couldn't pump ANY milk. No matter how hard I tried. I truly felt like a failure. I couldn't let it down. It was mental for me bc if I thought about dc, i squirted milk across the room!

I gave lots of milk directly to dc. I couldn't have fed a kitten one meal with what came out when I tried to pump.

I am sure you've been told this, but drink A LOT of water. You need it to produce milk.

I did nothing but skin to skin bf for ds for a couple months! I couldn't set him down bc he wailed! I gave up and rocked and fed him all day long. I had a big pitcher of water with a tiny bit of sports drink by my chair. We both drank all day long. He doubled his birth weight in 2 months.

There aren't really rules for feeding are there? It's what baby needs, not what a book says. I am sure if I had asked anyone, they would have told me to let him cry.

An old wife's tale that my husband's gran told me was to drink a beer to help let down milk. It was common in 1920s. Maybe it helped them relax?

I didn't drink beer.......but I don't drink much anyway.

Take a deep breath and try to relax. In some ways, it could be a bit of mental health issue bc if you're stressed, it's difficult to produce milk. If you have to use formula, you do. A healthy baby is your goal.

Best wishes. Ignore people who are ignorant and thoughtless; your life is your life and you're trying to do what you think is right. So many people know what's right but don't even try to do it. You're doing your best and that's all you can do.

(....but please, in the name of kindness and peace, let's not compare bf to ed...men aren't our enemies and it's unfair to think that they're living life in a bath of beer while eating their favorite foods. )

You poor dear thing, you have really been through it. My sister and my best friend, like you, both nearly killed themselves trying to breastfeed and both just plain couldn't do it. I agree with you completely and I think it is not as rare as people claim it is. I hate the gaslighting of new mums by telling them their perception of what is happening is wrong. Or they are doing it wrong. I had problems feeding my first and nearly gave up because it wasn't 'supposed' to still hurt at 6 weeks and I was tired of being disbelieved.

I breastfed all three of mine, but I think it is important that we all stop talking about bottle feeding like it's failure and formula like it's poison. It's not. Babies whose mums can't feed them and who don't have access to it die of malnourishment. I am still boycotting Nestle for pushing formula to mums in undeveloped countries who don't have access to clean water and sterile bottles and sufficient formula to nourish them. But you, luckily, do have all that. So give your baby a bottle and start enjoying him/her. Ignore any assholes who are not 100 percent behind you, and trust your own instincts. You have got this, and bottle feeding has its benefits too (like Daddy bonding.). You are doing great! Hang in there - you'll find life much easier soon!

Sorry if this has already been said however the more stressed you get about it the worse it is. I ebf both mine for over 3 years (overlapped) couldn't express for the life of me as somehow it was too much pressure the more I needed to express the less I could do it. Try to resign yourself to bottle feed once the pressures off I bet it will happen for you

YANBU I was sucked in by the BFing promotion, told almost all women could do it, that low supply was vanishingly rare (they made it sound like about 1:million!), that it would work fine as long as we always fed on demand, fed within an hour of birth, didn’t use bottles, dummies, formula etc etc . No possible problems mentioned at all.

But of a shock then when I did all the things to make it work. And no milk. At all. Concerns dismissed by several midwives over several days as ‘cluster feeding’ and just keep BFing. I BF and BF round the clock but babynever ever settled. Eventually I fell asleep holding my baby and dropped her. The next day (5 days old) she was admitted to SCBU with hypernatraemic dehydration. We only just got there in time to avoid brain damage. She had to be tube fed formula as by then she was too weak to suck.

It later emerged that this shouldn’t have been a surprise. My milk hadn’t come in. I have PCOS, had gestational diabetes, haemorrhage during birth, pre-eclampsia and an infection. Nobody at BFing workshop or obstetric diabetes clinic thought to mention that any of these things alone could affect milk supply. This was devastating for my mental health and my baby’s health.

My milk didn’t come in in quantity until eight weeks. Until then she had about 90% formula. I reduced it down to 50% once my milk was in but refused to go any further as I found I needed the certainty of seeing the milk going in. And bottle feeding was far more enjoyable than BFing.

I tried BFing support groups but there were so many nasty women who assumed that anyone using formula hadn’t tried hard enough at BFing, because they’d been taken in by the lies told at BFing promotion. It was horrible going to those groups. But so hard to find any support for combi-feeding. A lot of the problem is the formula shaming that goes on, and the entirely negative view of formula - that even one bottle is unnecessary and will damage BFing.

BFing has never worked for all women ever. Once upon a time
some of us wouldn’t have survived to be pregnant or survive labour, so we wouldn’t have been trying to BF at all. Once upon a time our undernourished babies would have ‘failed to thrive’ and ended up dying from malnourishment or illness picked up which they couldn’t fight. Thankfully we now have formula so can avoid all of that.
But we do need to move away from this attitude of almost all women can BF. The likely figures are far higher than 1%. Its more likely to be 1% can’t BF at all, but a much larger percentage will not be able to make enough milk to fully satisfy the baby. Sadly, there is a lack of research into this because of the idea that almost all women can do it therefore low supply doesn’t really exist!

As above poster said, many babies of the past did not survive. Many more were fed by a relative or wet nurse.

Sorry you've had a tough time. Just remember - fed is best. Then try to shut out the noise.

I don't think it's true that only 1% or 2% or whatever have low milk supply/are "physically unable to BF" (whatever that means) - this just doesn't bear any relation to reality in the UK. MANY more than 2% struggle (about two thirds) and about half of those will then go on to stop before they wish to.

It comes from the idea that we are physiologically no different from women in generations gone by, or societies that still have a high BF rate - but the thing is BF is not simply a physiological process. It's emotional, it's hormonal, it's a learned skill, it's massively cultural, it's so much more than biology. Yet some are stuck on this notion that biologically we exist in some kind of vacuum, and hence are exactly the same as the mother in a BF-supportive culture. This is a problem because it becomes interpreted as being that the mother who struggles with breastfeeding is the one who is at fault when it is not her who is at fault, it is the culture surrounding her placing roadblocks in her way. That interacts with biology - we are not machines, operating in exactly the same way regardless of external factors.

If you live in a society where everybody breastfeeds, where you've grown up seeing babies breastfeed and hence built up a subconscious familiarity with what normal breastfeeding looks like, where babies are born and everybody surrounding you - your own mother, your sisters/aunts/friends with children all have breastfeeding experience, your midwife, GP and health visitor have all helped countless women to overcome initial BF difficulties and probably breastfed their own children too, where their knowledge of breastfeeding is highly experienced, instinctive and correct (being based on observation rather than reading in a book), where the usual baby-care practices are built around breastfeeding because there is no other way, involving a "babymoon" type culture where a new mother is surrounded by experienced mother friends and family, where casual wet-nursing is the norm (or alternatively, such as in modern-day Sweden - where casual/occasional supplementation is not seen as a failure of breastfeeding), where problems are taken seriously immediately and a solution is collaboratively sought and then supported long term - then it's quite likely that the vast majority of women will be able to breastfeed.

But we don't live there. And most women in the UK will encounter roadblocks when it comes to BF whether they (or their baby) have propensity towards supply/latch problems or not. This means that the first level response probably does need to be messages which counteract a lot of the cultural stuff, simply because that is the most simple and universal fix, requiring very little training and specialist knowledge, so I do (sorry) see a value in the "supply equals demand" message - even though I do agree it is simplistic and does not tell the whole story. The idea that "only X% blah blah" does annoy me but I think for slightly different reasons to you.

Totally agree. I exclusively breastfed my first born and having been born at 50 centile weight and 75th centile length she dropped to 2nd centile and stayed on that curve until I started weaning her at about 5 months, then she leapt up the centile until she reached the 91st and it did make me wonder if I had been under feeding her for those first few months, despite putting her to the breast whenever she seemed hungry.
When I found out I was expecting twins 2 yrs later I was determined to do better, I even harvested my colostrum at 36 wks as I knew one twin would need to be observed in special care when delivered so I wanted her to have my colostrum while she was there. But still I only lasted 2 weeks exclusively breast feeding them. Even in the post natal ward they took them from me and gave them formula despite me expressing my wish to exclusively breast feed them. I did express up to 2 months but just couldn’t keep it up. I am convinced it was due to my supply as I hear lots of positive stories about women exclusively breast feeding twins. So I agree, how ever much you put them to the breast some women are just not able to meet the demand and being told you are wrong is not helpful.

What a brilliant post Bertie

I think YABU. You want people to stop using phrases that help the huge majority of people who struggle with BF because you are unfortunately in the rare position to truly medically have a low supply.

We as a nation have a low bf rate because people don't tend to have the support they need to breastfeed. Most of the support I needed was those phrases. Supply does equal demand for the absolute huge majority of people. And midwives and baby weigh in are their to 'catch' and help people who are truly struggling with supply. To ban these phrases wouldn't help the majority of women to stick to breastfeeding. Many woman for example believe their pump output is equal to what their baby can take from the breast.

Depending on the baby, depending on the mama. Don’t lose sleep over it. Been there and bought the T-shirt too many times. You’ll get through it, don’t listen to others ‘advice’ or stories, it’s one of “those” things

YANBU I hate the pressure to breast feed. I personally didn't have low supply with either of mine, my milk actually came in early with both. With my second I was actually able to get off a 200ml feed at only 4 months pregnant.
But my DD (my first) was born with too much mucus on her stomach and would not feed, she slept constantly and wouldn't even wake for feeds, I was in hospital for 48 hours because her blood sugar levels were low because of it, the midwife came to see me the day after i was released from hospital and my DD had lost over 10% of her body weight, normally she would have been sent back to hospital, but I had only been out 24 hours, so he said let's give it 2 days and see how she is then. At the hospital they were putting expressed milk in a cap and literally pouring down her throat to get it into her, we ended up having to use a bottle as that way it would at least drip down her throat. When she was 4 days old, she started being sick, she was bringing up thick yellow mucus, this went on for 30 minutes, that night she woke up for a few on her own for the first time since she was born, but then wouldn't latch, so I kept pumping until I dried up at 6 weeks, even though I was on donperidome.

The feeling of guilt and hopelessness, I felt like I had failed my DD because BF and creating milk is 'normal' and 'all' women do it. It really added to my PND and stopped me from bonding with my DD.

With my second I had no pressure to BF and told them front he start I wasn't going to, but once he was born I decided to give it a go, he latched wonderfully and I had a good supply, but everytime he fed, he came out in hives so I had to stop after 2 weeks and switch to FF, but because nobody had put pressure in me I didn't care, I was just happy I gave it a go.

Both of my kids are happy and healthy, but I still feel so guilty that I essentially missed my DD's baby years in the fog of depression.

Personally I loathe the bf mafia. Made my first months with my firstborn traumatic and miserable - something which only changed when my brother, a doctor, turned up with a tin of SMA and told me to get a grip. Tried for about 12 hours with my second and decided I wasn’t going down that route. Many many years later, both girls doing just fine ta.

I forgot to say lip and tongue tie is another factor, baby is latched but it's too difficult and tiring to feed, so your supply drops. Lactation specialist, numerous paediatricians, nurses and midwives failed to spot my dds. She is 5 and its still clear as day.

I had low milk supply and a baby that wouldn't latch! Fought him for months and didn't bond with him as a result...until I stopped. I was told in my NHS antenatal class that there's no such hing as a baby that won't feed and a mother that can't produce enough milk. What a big pile of crap. I felt like an utter failure until I found out that yes there are babies that can't latch and before bottle feeding those babies died. And there are also mums who struggle to produce milk. I have PCIS and was anaemic and have learnt that these can cause problems with milk supply. NONE of the many professionals and so called breast feeding experts told me that. I feel very angry about this still and it was 22 years ago. Such an awful stressful depressing and difficult time.

My milk never came in I have no idea why but with all three of mine I didn't get leaking ir anything. Maybe it was to do with my fear of bfing. Who knows.

OP as others have said try not to let them get to you. Some women have a real smug attitude when it comes to some aspects of being a parent.

"And midwives and baby weigh in are their to 'catch' and help people who are truly struggling with supply. "

But they don't though. My baby was admitted to hospital because he lost so much weight as he wasn't getting enough milk and still no one said to me "maybe you should try some formula". It's madness.

Yanbu. I’ve signed up just to respond to your post because it takes me back to where I was 8 years ago.
It took me years to feel that it was okay that I couldn’t breastfeed my firstborn. It wasn’t a supply issue but to do with latching - another thing people like to say you can overcome with the right support and perseverance - well not in my experience. It took a NICU doctor telling me I needed to give my son a bottle for his own health before I could accept it. I feel sad that I let it get that far, but I understand why I did - because I’d really bought into the belief that if you try hard enough you can overcome breastfeeding issues - which is of course nonsense.
So please, allow yourself to accept it’s okay not to breastfeed. I’m really close to my son, we have a strong bond, he’s happy, healthy and doing very well at school - he cares not one bit how I fed him all those years ago!
Good luck with motherhood - you sound like you’re doing great already - so keen to fight for what you think best for your baby - but don’t forget there are so many other important things you’ll do for your child and none of us can ever do them all 100 % how we envisage.

Sorry I’ve gone on a bit! Not sure what the etiquette is but I hope that’s somehow helpful.

These ardent pro bf campaigners are a pain in the arse. I content myself in the knowledge that they'll be crap at some aspect of parenting in future and I'll be ace at it.

When I was a new health visitor, I had a HUGE row with one of the older, more experienced HVs who said all women could breastfeed, if they wanted to. It is absolutely illogical to believe that breastfeeding is possible for every woman: why should it be the one thing in the world that everyone, or even 99% of people get right every time?

The reason why we don’t have more ill, underweight babies is because we have formula feeds, clean water in this country, and some sensible professionals who do not bully new mothers.

One HV friend was kind but rather patronising to new mums until her own daughter twice found herself unable to breastfeed feed her children, despite a huge amount of skilled help. Her daughter was initially very distressed and felt a failure as a mother, but by using formula milk, both babies grew up to be amazing teenagers.

Just so sorry to hear that people are still being told patronising ill researched so called information. 🌺

Haven't rtft, but the one that does my head in is "[lists bf issues] but I persevered" Just fuck off! I persevered too, until DS's paediatrician insisted I start giving him formula. Great that it worked out for you, but by equating persevering with success you are saying I wasn't successful at breastfeeding because I gave up. I'm pretty sure you didn't have a baby with severe tongue tie, in SCBU and sore nipples due to poor latch for 10 fucking weeks. But by all means suggest I just gave up.

Big for you, OP. I was told that low iron levels would reduce my milk supply (if I didn’t have a transfusion)....helpfully 24 months AFTER the child I actually struggled with milk supply for. There are so many variables and even 1-2% struggling with long-term low production levels is a substantial number of real people, real Mums, real babies. Be kind to yourself. Keep feeding alongside a bottle IF it’s what you want to do. Drop if without a further thought if it’s not. I was also told high calorie load/lots of oats by a v unhelpful HV. If you can, try to get lots of veggies, iron and colourful, nutritious food in instead- it will help you with recovery and mental health even if you don’t keep feeding baby. If BF was a male issue, there would be so much more research. It would be so helpful if breasts came with a see-through measuring scale on the side, but it’s almost impossible to know what is actually produced. But by doing a weighted feed, you’ve already gone to the most scientific way possible to find out. Now just be kind to yourself. You’ve been dealt a duff genetic hand, it’s not the end of the world, it’s existed for millennia (wet nurses have always existed, no-one can pretend that it’s just culture or a modern problem to not be able to feed or to need help ensuring baby has enough milk). Use the formula that is out there, cut yourself some slack, enjoy time with baby, look to the future and all the other things you can do to help develop baby over many years. And try not to get wound up about *icks that haven’t got a clue about your personal reality. I can’t tell which of my mates babies were bottle fed or not. This too will pass. Get some choice phrases to respond to the worst of commenters, but try not to carry the anger around you. With the dedication you have, there are so many more positive things you can turn your time to. Hugs.

@NCBabyBoy It’s so problematic, isn’t it. Claiming it’s a mental thing rather than a physical thing. Women have been gaslit since the dawn of time into believing things are “all in their head”. And yet in 2019 it perpetuates. Many friends of mine have been on the receiving end of patronising comments about them not trying hard enough to breastfeed. These are women who are real go-getters in life, really driven and succeed the vast majority of the time in their pursuits. But no amount of perseverance and positivity was ever going to alter their biology and they almost killed themselves trying in the process.

It’s like expecting women to somehow be able to find more hours in the day so we can be indefatigable full-time mothers AND high-flying, full-time professionals AND the perfect wives all while keeping ourselves and our houses immaculate. Along with all the other balls we’re expected to juggle.

It’s time we stop putting so much pressure on women to be impossibly “perfect”.

My mother had the exact opposite problem with me. She produced plenty of milk, but I wouldn't accept it. While still in the hospital they tried me with expressed milk; still wouldn't take it. The nursing staff even tried giving me someone else's expressed milk (which they only told mother about afterwards) but I still refused. They gave me formula, and I couldn't get enough of it. Guzzled it down with glee apparently. So mother had to have injections to dry up her milk. But she was always annoyed when she heard women basically being guilted for not breastfeeding. As she said, there are LOTS of reasons why breastfeeding isn't always possible. And trying to make women feel guilty for not being able to breast feed (or choosing not to) is just cruel. As long as your baby is feed, cared for and, most importantly, LOVED, that's what matters.

"But they don't though. My baby was admitted to hospital because he lost so much weight as he wasn't getting enough milk and still no one said to me "maybe you should try some formula". It's madness."

That must have been so stressful and scary for you.

What I found was that, during pregnancy, I was taught the signs of a tiny baby who wasn't getting enough milk. But the moment the baby was born, the midwives wanted me to ignore potential warning signs in the interests of encouraging breastfeeding. So, when I expressed concerns about not getting wet and dirty nappies, I was made to feel that I was being hysterical and that I should just be reassured by the fact that my baby "obviously looked happy" (not sure where they got that from as she screamed non-stop). In the end, I ended up supplementing because I didn't trust that the healthcare team was keeping an eye on my baby and that they'd notice if she was getting dehydrated.

I find it massively sad that in a thread about unhelpful phrases people are casually throwing around phrases like breastfeeding gestapo equating bf-ing advocates with the nazi secret police (this is massively disrespectful to bf-ing advocates and the millions murdered in the holocaust. Also breastfeeding mafia again a very inappropriate phrase.

By all means disagree with people but use appropriate language.

I have reported the use of gestapo to MN who have done nothing so essentially they must support this type of language. When large organisations such as MN support this language no wonder the UK has such shockingly low breastfeeding rates. Mumsnet you sadden me.